Rogue Problems

90 Human Rogue
10585
Ive been trying to do BGs tonight and playing them I've realized why rogues are so bad right now. Apart from God awful mobility, survivability seems to be a huge issue.

We lack both passive and reliable active survivability. Oh armor is equal to or lower than almost all cloth classes. Our dodge (which used to be one of our decent defenses) is lower than it ever was (even when undergeared in other expansions) and recuperate heals for close to nothing (7k a tick every 3 seconds with it being affected by the -30% healing nerf).

As far as active goes, the only real reliable defense we have is cloak. Evasion is easily bypassed by almost every melee or pet class. Combat readiness, even if I were to activate it at near 100% health would not hit full effect until I'm at 50% health in most cases and even then it doesn't do nearly as much for us as one would think. Plenty of times I've had classes rip me apart with a fully stacked CR up. I know this is slightly anecdotal but im sure other rogues can agree with me on this. Feint is decent but if you get stunned on a global and weren't able to feint 5 sec before it is useless.

Cheat death is terrible. If it worked reliably like cauterize then I think it would get picked up much more often, but countless times a dot would proc it at 5k health and you will still die half a second later to an auto attack. Its hardly worth a talent slot in its current form.

I feel like rogues defensive CDs just aren't nearly as reliable as every other class. And no, this is not a grass is greener statement. I've played other classes before and my rogue feels like it is the hardest to survive on, bar none.

Also I don't believe its "just the state of the game" problem right now. I honestly believe its a rogue problem at this point. Rogues just have not evolved with the times at all. Our abilities used to be good before EVERYONE got part of the rogues toolkit, but now, we are being out shined by every single class.

This all can be passed off as a L2P issue but top rogues are even struggling/rerolling because this class just inst competitive unless you are being carried by some of the best players in the world.

I could offer suggestions to help fix us, but it wouldn't be anything that hasn't already been said. 5.1 was my hope and they did change a few things to help us out but I really feel like it wasn't nearly enough. I'm keeping my chin up for 5.2 but given all the brush offs from all the blue posts/tweets it just doesn't look promising either.

/endrant
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87 Blood Elf Rogue
6320
The game has evolved. Rogues have not.

^Why rogues are the suckage in a nutshell.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
The game has evolved. Rogues have not.

^Why rogues are the suckage in a nutshell.
Yeah, Rogues got left in the dust in MoP. Even Resto Druids have a 30 seconds Vanish with built in 2 DoT clear and "blink". They need a lot of work.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14345
rogues survivability its the lowest in game atm .combat readiness has to be turned into a shield wall, flat % reduction cause its very pointless atm. you will be dead by the time it reaches 5 stacks. not to mention its useless against any caster.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
12725
It is true that Rogues are horrible right now. Unfortunately, Blizzard is so cautious with buffing classes that they'll probably attempt to fix you by nerfing other classes which counter you, which is bizarre.

A reworking of talents would be a good start.

CoS needs to have its cool down cut in half and naturally include all physical instead of needed a glyph.

CR is just awful. Take that out and just include it into CoS with the lower cd.

The new stealth is an abomination. I have no IDEA what they were thinking with that.

I would wager that with better gear, as the expansion continues, rogues will get better, but not like they did in Cata. No Legendary daggers on the horizon this time, I'm afraid.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6030
Rogues are just plain boring. Nothing really stands out as being an exceptionally cool ability/animation for the class. Even hunters have a better looking version of stealth.
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There are two reasons Rogues are doing poorly:

(1) Two things made Subltely Rogues strong/OP in Cata, Energetic Recovery on Recuperate (only one finisher to "juggle") made them strong early Cata despite poor burst/sustained, and damage increases (Hemo buff, scaling, legendaries, PvE trinket) made them OP by the end of Cata.

Blizzard could have simply moved ER off Recuperate and toned down damage, and Rogues would have been balanced in Cata. Instead, Blizzard nerfed Rogues pretty hard.

(2) CC increased dramatically in MoP. What CC can a Rogue break? Roots/snares on a 2m CD (Vanish) and magical CC that does not remove control of character (read: roots/snares) on a second 2m CD (Cloak).

That's it.

No Berserker Rage 30s CD 6s fear/incapacitate break/immunity, no 15s stun break on Blink, nothing. A Rogue can break snares/roots on 2, 2m CDs (or with 50e IF they talent BoS).

Why's that important? Because Rogue passive survivability, which is essentially only dodge + Recuperate, was toned down for MoP, but active mitigation can't be used while stunned/feared/incapacitated.

It's also kinda hard to get to a target while CCed, hard to stay on that target if you can no longer outrun them (base 50% Crippling is like removing a Feral's run-speed bonus), and hard to damage them if more than half your damage comes from auto-attacks (that is, you have to have high up-time to do damage).

Is it any wonder that Rogues are vanishing? The game isn't fun if you can't play it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17360
12/13/2012 09:09 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
There are two reasons Rogues are doing poorly:

While those 2 things play a small role there theres no 1 or 2 things keeping rogues down. The biggest thing would probably be the fact that everything rogues had in cata was nerfed in someway from the start of mop beta. That's not even exaggerating almost everything that had anything to with rogue pvp was nerfed in someway. While all the other classes were buffed rogues got downgraded. Other classes got bigger toolkits while rogues got smaller.

12/13/2012 09:09 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Is it any wonder that Rogues are vanishing?

Who really wants to pvp with the class that has the worst version of everything. Thats why their vanishing.
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90 Undead Rogue
6570
I see these post and I make these posts over and over and not a single hot fix or word from Blizzard saying that anything will change for us PVP wise. We're literally the joke of PVP right now. What is pissing me off is that all the players (for the most part) even the ones that don't play rogues see we have a huge issue and nothing is happening....

It's just they forgot about rogues when designing everything for mop on accident or something. The talent choices are complete garbage and just such a jumbled mess like they put no thought into it at all.

Maybe 5.1.5 or 5.2 will fix it.... but i'm really f'ing sick of waiting when the only fun I have right now is raid night with my guild and i'm not even a pve type person. I hate doing PVP right now but I know if I don't cap CP each week then i'll just be even further behind than I already am if we do get some decent changes.

I don't think many enjoy playing their rogues anymore.
Edited by Sneaknaround on 12/13/2012 10:32 PM PST
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The game has evolved. Rogues have not.

^Why rogues are the suckage in a nutshell.
Yeah, Rogues got left in the dust in MoP. Even Resto Druids have a 30 seconds Vanish with built in 2 DoT clear and "blink". They need a lot of work.


Displacer DOES NOT clear any DOTs at all. Don't spread misinformation.
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12/13/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Divine
While those 2 things play a small role there theres no 1 or 2 things keeping rogues down.


Did you even bother to read them? Particularly the first one? Here's the conclusion, notice anything?

Blizzard could have simply moved ER off Recuperate and toned down damage, and Rogues would have been balanced in Cata. Instead, Blizzard nerfed Rogues pretty hard.


12/13/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Divine
Who really wants to pvp with the class that has the worst version of everything. Thats why their vanishing.


Rogues don't have the worst version of everything, they just don't have the best of hardly anything. That wouldn't be quite as bad if they had a bit more of a chance to use what they already have.

12/13/2012 10:29 PMPosted by Sneaknaround
Maybe 5.1.5 or 5.2 will fix it.... but i'm really f'ing sick of waiting when the only fun I have right now is raid night with my guild and i'm not even a pve type person.


I'm not holding my breath, but I am holding my wallet.

12/14/2012 12:46 AMPosted by Loreonguy
Displacer DOES NOT clear any DOTs at all. Don't spread misinformation.


No, it doesn't you're correct. But then, neither does Vanish. Know what does clear (magic) DoTs? Cloak of Shadows, a 2m CD. Know what else? Resto's Nature's Cure, an 8s CD.

I'm sorry that that poster spread misinformation, we should be clear about what's out there.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17360
12/14/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Did you even bother to read them? Particularly the first one? Here's the conclusion, notice anything?

My point was being clear on how much was nerfed. If I wrote every nerf it be like writing an essay. Most people don't really know how much rogues were nerfed. Almost everything about the class was nerfed in some way its not hard to see why people are aren't playing it.

Then add to it no sign of help coming and 9 months (counting beta) so far of ignored feedback the class will be setting record lows in pop unless something big happens. Games are about fun and rogues aren't having any and it shows.
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90 Gnome Rogue
7420
Its sad to hear rogues only contribute to opening Ghost Iron lock boxes now in this Expansion :D.
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90 Human Rogue
9225
Where to start here?

Nightstalker should be baseline, and replaced by something more useful/interesting.
Combat readiness needs a total redesign.
Cheat death almost never helps.
Leeching poison needs a buff.
Elusiveness needs a total redesign. I'm not using a GCD on feint, when it has a pathetic 5s duration.
Burst of speed could stand to have an even lower energy cost.
Paralytic poison is useless as is.
Versatility needs to be replaced, one way or another. Which brings me to combo points.

Combo points really need to be on the rogue, kind of like holy power is now. Having to use redirect, and it having a cooldown baseline, is a joke. AFAIK, everyone else is now free of this clunky system, and we should be too.

Overall damage needs a buff. Especially true of sub.
Survivability, in general, needs a buff.
Eviscerate should refresh the duration of slice and dice in the sub spec.
Recuperate should be buffed to non useless numbers.
Stuns need a slight duration buff.
Cloak of shadows, and vanish CDs need to be reduced, slightly.

Now for other classes abilities which make rogueing way too difficult.

Faerie fire needs its PvP duration cut in half, at the very least, and a significant cooldown must be added. Either that, or the "unable to stealth, or turn invis" should be removed. I'd prefer the latter. Sunder armor doesn't do this, nor does expose armor.

Most AoE effects need to respect stealth, the same way they respect control effects that break on damage. Exceptions being hunter's flare, and... I don't know what. The trouble here is everyone just craps AoE now. Just constant passive AoE, coming out of their !@#$. This makes it damned impossible to get an opener, like ever. Also, the range/radius of some of the AoEs is just insane. A year ago, I wouldn't have thought this to be the case, but things have changed.
Edited by Dextër on 12/16/2012 8:56 PM PST
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12/16/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Dextër
Where to start here?


I mostly disagree with your suggested needs. Nightstalker doesn't need to be baseline, CR doesn't need a redesign (or IMO to exist, but I'll humor it) ... OK, our survivability as a whole does need improvement.

I think that most Rogue problems could be solved with 2 major talent changes (and a third for QoL reasons) and a much larger number of talent, glyph, and ability tweaks.

Talent Change 1: Prey on the Weak makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE as a talent. PvE Rogues can't stun a boss, and will make more headway using other abilities on trash. Heck, it isn't even useful for questing. It's a group-PvP talent, period. At the same time, Deadly Brew is useful to all Rogues, and as such makes absolutely no sense as a PvP set bonus.

The two need swapping. Period.

Talent Change 2: How many Rogue players have you met who like Prep/Step? 1? 6? How many hate it? 98-99%? This is a bad customer service move. Prep needs to be either baselined or removed, and something else put in its place.

Talent Change 3 (QoL): Q: What's the difference between "combo points on the Rogue" and no CD on Redirect? A: You don't need to press a button. Rogues have been asking for this change for several years/expansions now, Versatility could use a change.

Minor buffs to other talents could put Rogues in a decent playability place.

- No one uses Nightstalker. Why not? +damage is boring and not very useful. A recently suggested "+25% opener effectiveness" (buffs Cheap Shot and Garrote) would allow Nightstalker to compete with Shadow Focus and (fixed) Subterfuge.

- Deadly Throw is pointless. For one, it's not deadly, but that's not it's main issue. Its main issue is that its completely unrealistic to assume a Rogue will have 5 combo points on a ranged target during a 2 second cast. Sorry, not going to happen often enough for someone to commit that button press to muscle memory. It's stupid.

I'm not saying the 5 second lockout should be available for 1 cp, that would be stupid too, but the interrupt should require fewer combo points. Deadly Throw could also stand to have its snare duration normalized to a full 8 seconds, 6 seconds is too short.

- Cheat Death is not cutting it. It was meant to be used with other Subtlety survivability talents that it no longer sits beside. It needs a slight buff.

- Leeching Poison has two issues. First, it only works off strikes, not all damage done. That screws over PvP Rogues in general (low target up-time) and Mut Rogues all over (high bleed/poison damage). Second, its healing is reduced not only by lack of PvP power (and non-healer PvP power at that), but also by a target's resistance. That makes it pretty much useless for PvP. These need to change.

- Feint is a GREAT talent with two issues. First, it can't be used while stunned/feared/incapacitated, and that's killing PvP survivability; this is an easy fix. Second, it has an energy cost, rough for PvE Rogues. A glyph changing the energy cost to a short CD would be great for PvE Rogues.

- Step is a GREAT move, but insufficient. Many High-rated Arena players have posted for months on end it needs a slight buff, a reduction in CD (usually, 20 seconds is cited) and to be able to work through, but not break roots.

- People are still rarely taking BoS, a further reduced energy cost probably won't help much. BoS's two effects, speed and root/snare break/immunity, could be combined at the current or higher (60) energy cost if the speed was also reduced. 40-50% speed boost would be fine, 20-30% if it benefited from Glyphs of Sprint and Blurred Speed. To not be so d@(*ed annoying, it shouldn't break stealth either ... though also should not benefit from Shadow Focus.

- Paralytic Poison is a great idea, but like Deadly Throw, it's impractical. Why? Because it stacks (20%) slower than Deadly Poison used to (30%), but a single 8 second CD will dispel the entire stack. It needs to dispel at a slower rate than the entire stack.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 12/16/2012 9:33 PM PST
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- Others:

- Glyph of Debilitation is also impractical. Like Deadly Throw, it needs its snare normalized to 8 seconds (up from only 6). It also needs to function on more than just Eviscerate/Envenom, Rogues use more finishers than that. Rupture (the strike, not the ticks) should also proc it.

Between a practical Deadly Throw and Glyph of Debilitation, both PvP AND PvE Rogues would have the options of running Crippling, Deadly Brew, or Deadly Throw w/Debilitation, whatever fit their play-style. That's a boon for Rogue players, and not a bust for other classes.

- Imagine for a second what would happen to Ferals if you gave them baseline speed (100-115%) and removed their root/snare shifting. That's where Rogues are with losing 70% base Crippling ... except that Step's CD is a good 9 seconds (60%) longer than Feral Charge's. With the new Shiv mechanic, Rogue's Crippling should at least split the difference, 60% base 80% on Shiv. That's still a baseline nerf, but a benefit to skilled Rogues who use Shiv (energy cost and GCD) well.

- Venomous Wounds is a fine mechanic, but is much too limited for PvP. It has a poison requirement that horribly limits its duration, makes energy regen dispellable, and doesn't return energy on bubbles. The poison requirement needs to be lifted, and VW needs to return energy on (but NOT do poison damage to) bubbles.

At the same time, many Rogues have complained about the loss of Overkill and how slow Mut plays. Changing VW to 100% proc rate and keeping energy regen at 10e/proc would take energy RNG (not fun) out of the game while helping Mut be just a little more player involved. Of course, some damage could have to be nerfed slightly to compensate.

- Finally, the amount of Rogue passive damage is absolutely astounding! Not to mention boring. This could be fixed by simply making poisons active damage.
(1) Change poisons to ALWAYS (100% chance) proc on yellow hit.
(1A) For more player satisfaction, add to damage results "Your Backstab does X damage, plus Y Wound Poison damage (Z total).
(2) Change poisons to NEVER (0% chance) proc on white hit.
(3) Adjust poison damage and Mut's mastery to rebalance overall damage.

SUDDENLY! Combat is still available for players who need/like more passive damage while Mut and Sub are both active, but play out differently in "how they do damage," a stated Blizzard design intent.
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90 Human Paladin
14915
12/14/2012 02:41 AMPosted by Kuteness
Its sad to hear rogues only contribute to opening Ghost Iron lock boxes now in this Expansion :D.


Had they not gotten legendaries, that pretty much would have been Cata for Rogues, too.
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12/16/2012 09:50 PMPosted by Xetene
Had they not gotten legendaries, that pretty much would have been Cata for Rogues, too.


Nah, Rogues had more going for them in Cata.

In PvP, even with their CC nerfed in 4.0.6, it was still stronger than most other classes/specs (save Frost Mages). That meant there was also a lot less CC for Rogues to get mired in. Nor was sticking to a target as much an issue. Rogues were strong, but not OP.

In PvE, Mut and Combat were competitive, and thanks to the Hemo buff, Sub was getting there just before legendaries were introduced.

Cata messed up Rogues in a lot more ways than just taking away legendaries/PvE trinkets.
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90 Worgen Rogue
3645
Talent Change 1: Prey on the Weak makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE as a talent. PvE Rogues can't stun a boss, and will make more headway using other abilities on trash. Heck, it isn't even useful for questing. It's a group-PvP talent, period. At the same time, Deadly Brew is useful to all Rogues, and as such makes absolutely no sense as a PvP set bonus.


dunno how this would help. i agree deadly brew is useful for all rogues, but that would just make it mandatory.

- Venomous Wounds is a fine mechanic, but is much too limited for PvP. It has a poison requirement that horribly limits its duration, makes energy regen dispellable, and doesn't return energy on bubbles. The poison requirement needs to be lifted, and VW needs to return energy on (but NOT do poison damage to) bubbles.


didn't know about the absorbs part; that needs to be addressed asap.

- Finally, the amount of Rogue passive damage is absolutely astounding! Not to mention boring. This could be fixed by simply making poisons active damage.
(1) Change poisons to ALWAYS (100% chance) proc on yellow hit.
(1A) For more player satisfaction, add to damage results "Your Backstab does X damage, plus Y Wound Poison damage (Z total).
(2) Change poisons to NEVER (0% chance) proc on white hit.
(3) Adjust poison damage and Mut's mastery to rebalance overall damage.


sounds good on paper, but it would take a boatload of rebalancing. probably better for next expo. in the short term id prefer if they gave crit modifiers on abilities and balance their base damage accordingly; just to give a semblance of big numbers.

good suggestions altogether.

i'd really like to see the return of some spec definition. right now things are separated by the means we do damage, and that's it. all of the other perks were just outright removed.

rogues also need more armor, dodge, and parry. i hit evasion right now and get a whopping 65% dodge (+3% parry); giving a 1/3 possibility of getting my face smashed in regardless of the "defensive" cooldown i just used; even if it lasts for 15 seconds.

as a side note: someone suggested they add a minor glyph that give the CloS spell effect perma. i'd totally love that.
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