In the World of Dailycraft...

60 Draenei Death Knight
0
... does it seem fair that healers are required to maintain a dps spec (and in the case of paladins and monks, a dps gear set), while tanks don't?

I was perusing MMOChampion, when I came across these posts by Draztal of the EU blues:

You have two talent specializations. Why not have one for DPS? Even if it's a different healing spec, do you really need it at every single moment of the day? It's your choice to go with two healing specs, and that obviously comes with a downside (just as a tank that decides to go with two different tanking specs and argues his DPS is low on that content).

Proceeding to argue that because you run with a dual healing spec there's no content you can do is not going to get you very far because the answer is simple: use a DPS spec for that content.


If you are arguing that it's bad design that you're expected to do damage to defeat your foes (which is what you do on daily quests and scenarios) then I have the feeling we're just disagreeing on a fundamental level: what makes this game an (MMO)RPG.

You can't heal your foes to death (at least not yet), so if you don't want to DPS but want to do dailies, nothing short of divine intervention will help you solve your case. It really sounds like we just disagree on the most fundamental level: how the game should be played on its most basic level.


from:
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/248742-charms-and-repetition-of-content/

Since for some inane reason I can't post on the EU forums, I'll just have to start a discussion on this here.

It's things like this that cause players to suspect that Blizzard employees don't actually play this game. He does know that solo-questing and doing dailies in a tank spec has been both viable and, in some cases, easier since the Lich King patch, right? Yeah it might take you longer to kill 1 out of the 8 bears you need to kill for some daily as a tank, but you can easily pick up 8 bears and aoe them down. For some tanks, the extra time it takes to kill a single mob might be negligible, too.

Meanwhile, I, as a resto shaman, have to deal with lower damage, spell pushback, and long cast times. And what about paladin and monk healers? They don't have caster specs that they can use with their healing gear that I'm aware of, so they need to maintain a completely separate gear set, too. My secondary spec is elemental, so I do take full advantage of that feature. But were we not told that Blizzard wouldn't design content around players having dual specialization?

My shaman is my only max level healer, so I understand my perspective may be a bit limited. How does the healing community feel about this? Do you think we should have better soloing ability in our healing specs?
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Maybe they could have better soloing ability, but I don't think it's very unfair if they don't. I think Draztal addressed the poster's concerns nicely as well, and actually brings up an entirely different issue. Inherently, all the content in this game typically revolves around making someone's health bar reach zero. Whether you require a healer or a tank is just a stipulation. You'd need to undergo some intense brainstorming to try to remodel WoW in a new image.

Aside from that, when I do things, I like to be optimized, so even if they refitted healers, packed with a bigger punch, I'd still feel compelled to use a more effective method to accomplish my goal, which would ultimately be using a DPS spec.

Do you think Brawler's Guild is unfair?
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90 Night Elf Druid
7275
I've never understood why we only have 2 spec limit back when it was first introduced about 3 years ago. The Rift MMO has about 9 different specs you can have at any time. And now that we don't even really 'spec' anymore (in traditional talent-tree systems), but just have roles with flavor talents I think it makes even less sense. Why limit us in the number of roles we can have?

I think every class should have as many specs available to them as they have roles they can switch into.

Ghostcrawler said he wants specs to be meaningful. The most meaningful thing about it is the 30+ minutes it takes me to switch my hotkeys around when I switch, and I'm guessing if I was troubled enough I could find an addon to fix that.
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60 Draenei Death Knight
0
Maybe they could have better soloing ability, but I don't think it's very unfair if they don't. I think Draztal addressed the poster's concerns nicely as well, and actually brings up an entirely different issue. Inherently, all the content in this game typically revolves around making someone's health bar reach zero. Whether you require a healer or a tank is just a stipulation. You'd need to undergo some intense brainstorming to try to remodel WoW in a new image.

Aside from that, when I do things, I like to be optimized, so even if they refitted healers, packed with a bigger punch, I'd still feel compelled to use a more effective method to accomplish my goal, which would ultimately be using a DPS spec.

Do you think Brawler's Guild is unfair?


Draztal's response, as I understood it, was that having 2 healing specs comes at a disadvantage, just as having 2 tank specs. My response to this is having 2 tank specs comes at a much smaller disadvantage than having 2 healing specs.

The question isn't so much why does content exist that forces respecs(a topic for another thread, I'm sure). It's more about why is healing the one role that is so narrowly defined that it almost completely breaks down when it's taken out of a group setting. There was a time, once, when soloing as a tank was just as bad as soloing as a healer. Tanks took low damage, but they also did low damage, so doing anything took forever. Blizzard changed things (in 3.08 I believe) to make soloing as a tank easier, to the point where tank specs became the most efficient way to level. I believe this was before vengeance, too.

But, like you, I would also just switch specs like I do now to solo content, unless healing specs could aoe groups as easily as tank specs. So I guess it's a moot point this long after dual spec was introduced, unless one is discussing why lfr queues are always hung up on healers.

I haven't done Brawler's Guild, so I'm not going to weigh in on that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I do all my dailies as Disc.

>.>
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
12/20/2012 06:32 PMPosted by Jezebella
And now that we don't even really 'spec' anymore (in traditional talent-tree systems), but just have roles with flavor talents I think it makes even less sense. Why limit us in the number of roles we can have?


This is a very good point, if not completely settling entire thread: unless you're a Priest, the only reason to have two Healer specs is for minor savings on materials for swapping talents and saving a few minutes redoing your keybinds really quick for PvP.

You bring up an interesting suggestion by allowing players to transition between roles freely, and it makes complete sense to allow it in today's gaming era, but it conflicts with my idea of an MMORPG. Sadly, WoW has been migrating from that idea with every patch it feels.

12/20/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Callofbooty
It's more about why is healing the one role that is so narrowly defined that it almost completely breaks down when it's taken out of a group setting. There was a time, once, when soloing as a tank was just as bad as soloing as a healer. Tanks took low damage, but they also did low damage, so doing anything took forever. Blizzard changed things (in 3.08 I believe) to make soloing as a tank easier, to the point where tank specs became the most efficient way to level.


Their intent by increasing a tank's damage output was to hopefully make them appear more fun to play and attract more players to take on the role of tank since tanks were becoming a quickly dying breed.

Prior to that, though, healers had actually received a late BC buff increasing their damage output. I remember my main spec was a Holy Priest and I just MB/Smited my way through everything rather slowly. Before Spellpower was unified, they made a fraction of Spell Healing buff your Spell Damage as well, which massively increased my questing efficiency.

I guess it's ultimately true that healers are weaker than tanks when it comes to this content though.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
I do all my dailies as Disc.

>.>


This.

I also do my dailies as a Mistweaver on my monk.

I'm a tad crazy, though.
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90 Troll Druid
6825
In a perfect world we would have content specifically for healers. Quests that involve us keeping some NPC alive while they do the killing, etc but it will never happen because of all the extra work it would take to make double the content each xpac/patch.

I would be happy with getting rep from dungeons again, which blizzard has hinted at implement some similar system in 5.2. I lost the source but it was a tweet I saw on mmo champ.

Or, another solution would be gear vendors where you can get a full set (not just a few off pieces like currently) of say 458 gear (sufficient to do quests in) for JP or gold or some other currency. This would make it easier to get gear for a DPS off spec who doesn't share gear with your healer set (say if you are an r.druid and wanted to go feral, or holy pala's going ret). That way, we wouldn't have to farm hundreds of heroics and hope we can roll on OS gear without getting booted. Heck, that would be nice for everyone. I've been wanting to try out feral on my druid for a while but I CBA to run who knows how many heroics of MAYBE being able to roll on OS pieces to gear the spec. I'd like to just go to a vendor, buy up some maybe 458 stuff and get rolling with it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
12/20/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Eoten
Or, another solution would be gear vendors where you can get a full set (not just a few off pieces like currently) of say 458 gear (sufficient to do quests in) for JP or gold or some other currency.


Don't you think that kind of defeats the entire purpose of a game of this nature?

Half the fun of an RPG is a enjoying the journey, which is something I don't think the new gaming era cares much for at all. Growing your avatar's power is like watering a plant and watching it flower. It seems really silly to me that when we see adversity we think we have to "solve" it instead of just progress through it.

Also, I don't think this was the OP's issue unless I entirely missed a loaded question, lmao.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8680
I do all my dailies as Holy.

>.>
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
I do all my dailies as shadow because I actually like shadow.

>.>
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60 Draenei Death Knight
0
Don't you think that kind of defeats the entire purpose of a game of this nature?

Half the fun of an RPG is a enjoying the journey, which is something I don't think the new gaming era cares much for at all. Growing your avatar's power is like watering a plant and watching it flower. It seems really silly to me that when we see adversity we think we have to "solve" it instead of just progress through it.

Also, I don't think this was the OP's issue unless I entirely missed a loaded question, lmao.


Nope, the topic is: why can't healers be as versatile as tanks and dps.

I don't think this requires a change of current content, even if I strongly disagree with the direction current content has taken.
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90 Tauren Priest
12030
Lately I've kinda been doing my dailies as Holy...

Sooo...yeah.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
We live in a World of Warcraft now where there is no penalty for swapping talents and glyphs. Unless you are a priest, there is no reason (no, not even pvp) to have 2 healing specializations. You can swap your talents and glyphs with zero penalty, and aside from priests you have only one healing specialization.

If you are a priest, well, disc gets the job done. As someone who until this expansion played a priest as main and always ran a disc/holy setup.... I feel their pain.

Everyone else though... suck it up. :3
Edited by Fluffy on 12/20/2012 10:19 PM PST
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There really should be tank specific, and healing specific quests.

Tank quests:
Gain aggro on multiple mobs to protect children
Use active mitigation to survive against a tough mob for a certain amount of time
Keep a mob focused on you, who drops aggro every 15 seconds or so and goes after casters channeling a spell.
Taunt swap with an npc tank to keep a debuff from stacking too high.

Healing quests:
Keep one npc alive.
Keep multiple npcs alive with a party interface.
Dispel timing.

This would go a long way to improve not only the variety in the world, but allow for tanks and healers to not just be aoe dps or low dps in the world. It would be nice to be able to sometimes use my role as healer in the world.

It also might help train up new tanks and healers.
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60 Draenei Death Knight
0
We live in a World of Warcraft now where there is no penalty for swapping talents and glyphs. Unless you are a priest, there is no reason (no, not even pvp) to have 2 healing specializations. You can swap your talents and glyphs with zero penalty, and aside from priests you have only one healing specialization.

If you are a priest, well, disc gets the job done. As someone who until this expansion played a priest as main and always ran a disc/holy setup.... I feel their pain.

Everyone else though... suck it up. :3


There's never been a penalty for swapping specs after they introduced dual spec. I do it for dailies. I've even recycled the healing gear that I've since upgraded into an elemental set, with its own gems and enchants and reforges, even it's own transmog!

That's not the point. The point is why is it acceptable for healers to swap to a dps spec to get anything done on their own when tanks don't have to? Why are healing specs the only ones so narrowly defined by their group roles that they become almost unplayable when they're taken out of groups? We can't all be disc, after all.
Edited by Callofbooty on 12/20/2012 10:35 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
I am pretty stubborn so I do all my dailies as MW. Brawler's Guild too (although I know that won't last, if I can get Rank 4 for the pet I'll be happy). I have few regrets about rerolling from my Shaman, but the biggest one is probably not being able to use my healing gear in a DPS set. So I don't have one.

But more on point: it would be very nice if there were healer-friendly solo content, OP. Or even if there were some kind of bar that Blizzard would set for themselves so all healers could solo effectively (Monk and Disc aren't exactly stellar DPS but it would be nice if the other specs would at least do that. I killed Bruce pretty quick too).

But I wont beat around the bush: its not going to happen unless a large percent of the playerbase (not just us) demands it. And I mean really demands it, otherwise Blizzard is simply not likely to care, and you'll get the response "build a DPS spec and switch". And we are absolutely not doing that, not even on the forum, a fraction of the playerbase.

It doesn't matter if you call out that they mentioned in the past that they didn't design content around Dual specs, or that dailies are centered around DPS, or that tanks are far more efficient at it that we are now. Either they will ignore that, or they will say their plans changed since then, which would lead to more questions they probably won't answer. They've done that before on multiple issues (some far more pressing) and will certainly do so again.

It's clear that they aren't interested in developing solo content with healers in mind for one reason or another (time/cost/whatever). Or maybe they have thought about it some, but it's literally the last thing on their mind and they've never gotten around to it and likely never will. It's unfortunate, but that's simply how it is. I would love a healer friendly guild like the Brawler's stuff. A hospital, or an E.R. team, or a healing sidekick to an NPC hero, something to show they cared a bit, but nope. It's a pipe dream. We're more likely to get the Dance Studio first.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 12/20/2012 11:06 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
For many years we complained because we didn't get to farm things and do things as easily as DPS. "Why can't we dps just as well when we are solo, why do we need to redo our talents when we aren't raiding, why is it so hard for us healers" we cried! And our complaint was legit. And so, lo and behold, the mighty blizzgods gave unto us healers the magical ability to have the same ease of farming and questing solo that everyone else always had without the hassle of respeccing. (dual spec)

And now we have basically everything we ever wanted or could have hoped for with zero penalty or cost to ourselves, so light years above and beyond what we used to have.... yet still we are complaining. "Why is that kid's candy tastier than mine!?" (re: tanks can solo better than healers)

Healers are narrowly defined because if we weren't, we wouldn't be healers anymore. You would be in a world like GW2 where there is no dedicated healer - everyone heals themselves.

To remove that dynamic is to change the construct of WoW more deeply than it has ever been changed, and have very far reaching effects outside of solo content. To make healers truly efficient and viable for solo play to the same extent that dps are, or tanks, is to make them considerably OP. It is acceptable because its part of the holy trinity setup, and always has been.

Are there ways around this? Maybe. Blizz could make it so that our healing is severely nerfed (maybe a 75% reduction) when we are soloing, and our damage severely nerfed when grouped (again, a 75% reduction with some caveat built in for disc and mistweaver). That might solve it.
Edited by Fluffy on 12/20/2012 10:58 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
13685
Only thing I hate about being a healer is having to be in my off-spec all the time when I'm not raiding. Having 2 sets of gear is not really an issue, most people have that for pvp/pve, and some carry more than 3 sets.

DPS as a healer if you have the patience for it, just like a tank, it takes forever and it's boring as hell.

Why would you need 2 healing specs anyways.
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60 Draenei Death Knight
0
For many years we complained because we didn't get to farm things and do things as easily as DPS. "Why can't we dps just as well when we are solo, why do we need to redo our talents when we aren't raiding, why is it so hard for us healers" we cried! And our complaint was legit. And so, lo and behold, the mighty blizzgods gave unto us healers the magical ability to have the same ease of farming and questing solo that everyone else always had without the hassle of respeccing. (dual spec)

And now we have basically everything we ever wanted or could have hoped for with zero penalty or cost to ourselves, so light years above and beyond what we used to have.... yet still we are complaining. "Why is that kid's candy tastier than mine!?" (re: tanks can solo better than healers)

Healers are narrowly defined because if we weren't, we wouldn't be healers anymore. You would be in a world like GW2 where there is no dedicated healer - everyone heals themselves.

To remove that dynamic is to change the construct of WoW more deeply than it has ever been changed, and have very far reaching effects outside of solo content. To make healers truly efficient and viable for solo play to the same extent that dps are, or tanks, is to make them considerably OP. It is acceptable because its part of the holy trinity setup, and always has been.

Are there ways around this? Maybe. Blizz could make it so that our healing is severely nerfed (maybe a 75% reduction) when we are soloing, and our damage severely nerfed when grouped (again, a 75% reduction with some caveat built in for disc and mistweaver). That might solve it.


I see where you're coming from, but let me ask you this: if we were having this discussion 5 years ago, when this same issue came up for tanks, would you still be able to the same thing? Even though you've now had 5 years of tanks being able solo as well, and sometimes better than, dps? The trinity wasn't destroyed, the tanking role wasn't forever altered and tanks didn't become incredibly OP. If anything, all the problems the tanking role had before they were more solo friendly carried over to after. So nothing really changed for tanks besides them being easier to level(and there being more tanks as a consequence).

Letting healers do solo content in a reasonable amount of time wouldn't make us OP. People seem to forget if a healer is healing, he's not dpsing. And if he's dpsing, he's not healing. Such a fix would be easier to implement now than ever, since spells are restricted to specs now. For example, if they reduced the cast of LB, CL, and LvB for resto and allowed them to do the same(or even more) damage as elemental's, it wouldn't be OP because resto doesn't have lava surge, fulmination, or overload, which are all really big contributor's to elemental's damage.

But Thaimaishu is right. It's too late to be having this discussion, really. I just saw Draztal's posts and wanted to see what the healing community thought about it. This isn't a qq-buff-my-dps thread, merely a discussion. Like I said earlier, I'd probably still switch to elemental to do dailies even if they did buff healer soloing.
Edited by Callofbooty on 12/21/2012 12:21 AM PST
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