Broken resto-sham haste breakpoints?

90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
Hey! Last I was reading, our haste breakpoints as outlined by Totemspot here-

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41

- were not functioning correctly; for example, you could reforge/gem/enchant haste to +3764 while being specced into AS and having the 5% raid haste buff, but folks were recording NOT getting that extra tick on HST and HTT- or it being sporadic and unpredictable on happening vs. not happening, when, according to math, it should always happen.

Now that I'm rummaging around for it, I can find no information on this issue. Did I dream it up?? If not, has it been fixed?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Hey! Last I was reading, our haste breakpoints as outlined by Totemspot here-

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41

- were not functioning correctly; for example, you could reforge/gem/enchant haste to +3764 while being specced into AS and having the 5% raid haste buff, but folks were recording NOT getting that extra tick on HST and HTT- or it being sporadic and unpredictable on happening vs. not happening, when, according to math, it should always happen.

Now that I'm rummaging around for it, I can find no information on this issue. Did I dream it up?? If not, has it been fixed?


I believe it was fixed either mid 5.0 or in 5.1. I heard about it too but it seems to be working now.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
Hey! Last I was reading, our haste breakpoints as outlined by Totemspot here-

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41

- were not functioning correctly; for example, you could reforge/gem/enchant haste to +3764 while being specced into AS and having the 5% raid haste buff, but folks were recording NOT getting that extra tick on HST and HTT- or it being sporadic and unpredictable on happening vs. not happening, when, according to math, it should always happen.

Now that I'm rummaging around for it, I can find no information on this issue. Did I dream it up?? If not, has it been fixed?


I believe it was fixed either mid 5.0 or in 5.1. I heard about it too but it seems to be working now.


*fingersteeple*

Interesttiiiinnnngg. I'll give it a shot with 5676 haste, to see how that extra tick on my Riptides feels. I'll lose out on a bunch of crit, but this could be the edge I need to one-up my holy pally partner- I barely register the damage before he's healed it!

With as much spirit as I have right now... who knows, it might even be sustainable. :)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
*fingersteeple*

Interesttiiiinnnngg. I'll give it a shot with 5676 haste, to see how that extra tick on my Riptides feels. I'll lose out on a bunch of crit, but this could be the edge I need to one-up my holy pally partner- I barely register the damage before he's healed it!

With as much spirit as I have right now... who knows, it might even be sustainable. :)


Crit is the best stat for sniping healing as a shaman. If you want to outheal your pally cohealer, however... You probably won't unless the fight caters towards shaman healing(stacked aoe damage) or is very bad for pally healing(does that even happen?)

It comes down to pallies having that mastery shield and beacon. So when they snipe, it also heals the tank and they get first "dibs" on damage.

As long as people aren't dying and you know how to correctly exploit your class's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses, you should be fine.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
Crit is the best stat for sniping healing as a shaman. If you want to outheal your pally cohealer, however... You probably won't unless the fight caters towards shaman healing(stacked aoe damage) or is very bad for pally healing(does that even happen?)

It comes down to pallies having that mastery shield and beacon. So when they snipe, it also heals the tank and they get first "dibs" on damage.

As long as people aren't dying and you know how to correctly exploit your class's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses, you should be fine.


Damn, is it? I'd been stacking it because my mastery sees minimal usefulness (his mastery directly countermands it) and I like the resurgence return.

The only place where I shine and he does not, is on massive group damage that MUST BE HEALED RIGHT NOW- IE Force and Verve before it got stealth fixed so that the bubbles reduce the damage way more.

I'm sure we're fine- we two heal everything but Lei Shi and Empress- but it's disheartening to be doing 20k less HPS than my friend on Garalon. And the 'YOU'RE BEING CARRIED LOL BAD HEALER' jokes tend to wear after a while.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/23/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Kynrith
'm sure we're fine- we two heal everything but Lei Shi and Empress- but it's disheartening to be doing 20k less HPS than my friend on Garalon. And the 'YOU'RE BEING CARRIED LOL BAD HEALER' jokes tend to wear after a while


Dude seems to be a douche. My advice? When you're bored on farm fights, find little ways to decrease his healing done. Like if he Hots someone, immediately top them off. (yes, i'm mean.) Use healing tide to heal up damage he would normally aoe up slower, that sort of thing.

It's what i did in DS to my shammy cohealer after she told me i couldn't single heal some of the bosses (challenge accepted.) She had 8k hps on ultraxion heroic (with me sniping everything.) No, that is not a typo. The next week she dpsed for at least that fight. >.>

Generally, anyone who understands how shamans work and think that low hps outside of emergencies makes them bad is an idiot.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
The issue has not been addressed or answered. I posted my finding in the bug forums a few months ago and i went ignored. There are two schools of thought. 1 is that it is broken and the other is that it may be like DH where you can't get an etra tick regardless of haste.

Personally i think it is broken and they either can't figure it out or can't be bothered with fixing it. So don't waste your time with 3674. I went up to 4500 and no changes after doing extensive drops. 3039 for elw is about all you want to do and imo that isn't worth it either as most of elw gets sniped anyway.
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90 Tauren Shaman
15120
Harpoa, what forums / blogs / sites / etc do you read to keep up with resto shammy business?
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
I read life in group 5 just because i like vixsens perspective.

Most of the stuff i do is trial and error.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
To be clear, it's the raid group that pokes fun at me; my cohealer is never anything but supportive and understanding! He tells me to ignore them, and he's right, but damn I hate being on the bottom all the time; previous patches I have mained druid and paladin, and it's hard for me to be okay with not being the best at what I do in a measurable fashion, especially when my class is doing fantastic as a whole.

Just gets irksome. I want to be the best I can.

And thanks for the info, Harpoa. Won't bother reforging then.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
12/24/2012 05:47 AMPosted by Kynrith
Just gets irksome. I want to be the best I can.


One thing to think about is when you drop your HTT. It is affected by mastery so that part of totems does work. It is much more potent if you drop it once everyone is at or below 50%. It will make a huge difference on the output of it.

Ten man i would suggest stacking crit until your eyes bleed in favor of any other secondary stat. There is a lot more single target healing in that venue so you get both mana as well as juicy heals. It is the only stat that dips into two different sources.

You should also test out UF over PE in ten man and see what you think. I would most likely chose UF if i were doing 10's. But thats just me.
Edited by Harpoa on 12/24/2012 7:53 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
Harpoa-

Mmm crit. Pretty much as it stands right now, shared spirit loot priority goes me for crit items, the holydin for mastery items, and we both shrug ambivalently at haste. Still, I'm about the only resto shaman I know who goes for crit- it seemed like a good idea for the mana return, and because my mastery is much less useful with a holydin and part-time disc priest as my co-healers. (Mostly just the holydin.)

I also learned more about UF recently, and was planning to give it a shot- I do like primal elementalist, but I find I just don't use it as frequently as I'd like. I just might have enough cooldowns without adding my elemental empowers. :)

One thing I was thinking of, however, was Tsulong-

Do you think UF is more valuable for first day-phase Tsulong, than using the 20% fire elemental buff?

I definitely do more healing in first day-phase than in second, as second keeps getting shorter and shorter, and also, of course, his health is lower so my heals hit harder; I've been popping fire elemental a few seconds into the phase and empowering myself, then making sure to UE as he casts Sun Breath, then a super-charged riptide, then healing surge, healing surge, healing surge- then back to healing wave or greater healing wave until my super-powered riptide runs out.

For second day-phase, I throw out earth elemental for the empower, but, as mentioned, it doesn't last as long.

Anyway, I'm not math-y enough to determine if the benefit from one +80% riptide is enough to outweigh the benefit of +20% healing for most of the phase. I wouldn't -think- it is, but then, that riptide ticks -hard- and contributes a significant number to my healing due to being able to tick past the duration of the sun breath buff.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
I really like UF personally, and I found PE to be pretty clunky to use. UF fits naturally into my playstyle.

Re: Teasing from the raid. Remember, someone always needs to be on "the bottom." And when there is only a pool of 2 to choose from, someone will always be on the top, someone will always be on the bottom! It's nothing like DPS, but a lot of people don't understand that. The paladin sounds like a solid player who is stacking mastery, so he's going to be dishing a lot of shields plus really strong healing too, as paladins are known for. It's alright if he is ahead of you, some, or even all of the time.

Since I am bored and nosy I decided to snoop around your world of logs data. Now I see some pretty concerning items. There are huge discrepancies between his healing done and yours, which normally I'd expect to see only if you had died. I know for some of them it is because it appears to be him doing the logging, so you don't see your heals (a problem I share, my co-healer does the logging too) and because of this on fights like Sha, Elegon, and Garajal, your heals will be much less represented. You should run your own logs (and so should I!)

1. Earth Shield Uptime - Often hovering around 60-70%.
2. Glyphs: Water Shield Glyph is not what you want on most fights. http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-resto_raid_healing_5_1_mop/#Water_Shield The dispel glyph is probably not what you want on, really, any fight. (Except maybe Tsulong, idk if it works for Terrorize and heals him?)
3. Healing Stream Totem should be used on cool down
4. You don't use ascendance much. This is tricky to use and I don't always find time to use it myself, but working it in more is something I'm working on. This is a cooldown to use when you have a high/comfortable amount of mana.
5. You use a lot of Healing Surge. Tidal waves GHW is almost always better, I would think. I could be wrong, but it seems odd to me to have that much use on it.
Edited by Fluffy on 12/24/2012 9:44 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
Hey Fluffy,

Yes, the things I have worked on lately are earth shield uptime, riptide uptime, and I'll be focusing on earth shield and making sure I use all of my cooldowns as frequently as possible. I know, my earth shield is bad- worse on some fights, better on others. And yes, I am quite concerned over the discrepencies in numbers; any fight we three heal, my numbers tank. Garalon, I have a hard time hitting over 53k hps- my holydin hits 70-80k. Blade Lord, the constant spread kills me, the movement in phase two is not a strong point.

Re: Earth Shield - it and CD usage are what I'm focusing on this next raid lockout. The last one I was concerned with learning new fights and mechanics, and definitely wasn't babysitting my shield as much as I should've been. I wasn't as familiar with the mechanics, and tend to be overcautious on unfamiliar fights, 'saving' my CDs for when I might really super need them.

Water Shield glyph is something I switched to at the suggestion of this forum, but I admit I haven't paid much attention to my glyphs; honestly, I don't find our glyphs to be very helpful in any given fight. Strictly speaking, I should probably unglyph TC as I rarely use it, but my other options are chaining - no thank you- HST is not terribly useful in HoF, might be good for Lei Shi... Riptide Glyph can go die in a mana-slurping healing-stealing fire, and SWG glyph, again, has limited use.

I could do better on HST, but it isn't a priority, as it doesn't do much healing; I'm not saying it's -wrong- to use it on CD, certainly that's beneficial, but I think right now I need to focus on keeping my ES uptime higher and find ways to use my CDs more.

As far as Ascendance, I planned to use it more than I ended up 'needing' to in Terrace, and I have a hard time with it in HoF due to the spread out and run nature of so many of the fights. I love the ability, but damn, it's hard to fit sometimes. Same thing with SLT.

And for Healing Surge, it actually is better to use than GHW until you get the 2 piece tier bonus, which I do not have; it is higher HPS for approximately the same cost as GHW, according to the math - here's a thread on it on Plusheal if you're interested!

http://plusheal.com/forum/m/1833799/viewthread/5033511-healing-surge/post/

So, to sum up, I'll look into my water shield glyph usage, try swapping out UF for PE, work on upping my earth shield (which gets especially low on Garalon, I usually toss it on the pheromones kiter who stays out of range), maintaining my high riptide, and try to fit every CD in twice per fight- easier without PE in the mix. Also try to get HST out a bit more, but it's a pretty insubstantial amount of healing, compared to the +healing on my ES target, and even the healing done by ES itself.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9070
12/24/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Fluffy
2. Glyphs: Water Shield Glyph is not what you want on most fights. http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-resto_raid_healing_5_1_mop/#Water_Shield The dispel glyph is probably not what you want on, really, any fight. (Except maybe Tsulong, idk if it works for Terrorize and heals him?)

So, I did some digging and compared our logs- I haven't found a fight yet where I didn't proc more mana than you did through water shield.

Perhaps you should consider using the glyph?

(Not trying to be a jerk or anything! I'll keep comparing and update any further findings- I've compared most HoF fights so far. If there's another reason I would be getting more mana than you from Water Shield, please let me know- my high crit rate counts under resurgence, so that should just leave the glyph.)

Edit: Mel'jarak should be unglyphed; Fluffy got 84k mana back, I only got 20-something-k, big difference! Grand Empress should be unglyphed- I got more mana, but only just, and the fight was two minutes longer because our DPS screwed up.
Edited by Kynrith on 12/24/2012 11:58 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
I personally don't use water shield glyph on most fights, mostly because it doesn't proc fast enough (I think the cutoff point is about 25-30 seconds - need at least 1 proc) and even if its on the borderline, the amount of extra mana gained is very marginal. Someone can do the math here but again, its very miniscule in the long run. When you say you look at logs, you are looking strictly at the amount of mana gained from water shield and not resurgence or anything like that, right?

I didn't see anyone tell you to glyph totemic recall. Its the #1 absolutely required glyph this tier. You need to recall HST at the last second. Some fights, you will find that you cannot do this (especially if you spec PE which is what I have been finding), but even just doing it 4 or 5 times in a fight, nets you 70,000 mana or so and it only costs you 1 global and the loss of 1 tick. its definitely the best glyph for mana returns that we have.

I usually have it glyphed along with glyph of healing wave (its pretty damn useful). The third slot varies between TC, SWG (usually the go to), Dispel glyph (on tsulong, if i'm bored but its only normal mode), and HST (good for fights like h wote, etc).
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90 Orc Warrior
12805
12/24/2012 09:00 AMPosted by Kynrith
I've been popping fire elemental a few seconds into the phase and empowering myself, then making sure to UE as he casts Sun Breath, then a super-charged riptide, then healing surge, healing surge, healing surge- then back to healing wave or greater healing wave until my super-powered riptide runs out.


Personally i pop ascendance right before sunbreath and start NS>GHW followed up by RT then a couple of HS. We only get one sun phase so i blow all my cd's for it. Make sure you ES Tsulong as well for the 20% boost to direct heals.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
I do sometimes use the WS glyph (like.. very rarely :P) but I find I get better return from Totemic Recall as Gardiff mentioned above, and I find other glyphs much more compelling, personally. I love love love glyph of Healing Wave, for example. :P

HST is hardly a negligible amount of healing, in fact, it is incredibly powerful. It costs one gcd and with TR glyph is essentially free (minus gcd/attention cost), really good, healing. It often is 10-15% of my healing done, in fact. HST is delicious, and managing it is as important (if not more so) than managing Earth Shield. Earth Shield Management, honestly, is about as simple as it gets. Plop on tank, swap on tank swaps, refresh at 0, profit. :P HST is similarly simple unless using Totemic Recall, which is honestly pretty fun.

Once I stop fussing around with elem as I am for the raiding holiday break, I'm going to try out a crit reforge build and see how I like it. Normally I run about 60% mastery and I feel my numbers could be way better. Time to start sniping. :P

Edit: I want to say I am far from perfect and forever learning, tweaking, and improving. I love talking about this stuff and trying new things. It may be that I should considering using the WS glyph more often, and I don't mind you saying so. xD So far I don't have mana problems with my current mana management system, and I expect I'll have even less so when I swap to a crit build.
Edited by Fluffy on 12/24/2012 12:38 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
Someone correct me if I'm wrong/ The "power gained" thinger shown that display gains from water shield shows only the times it procced - doesn't count the passive regen. Which would be 15% less on the glyphed version. Something... numbers.. math. Halp.

I am so terribly horrendously bad at mathy things though.

Kynrith Elegon 10N
Resurgence 156349 mana
Telluric Currents 84000 mana (Remember, this doesn't factor in the cost of the LB. 11 casts @ 7.1% of 300,000 is... what? MATH WHAT!? Idk) I think 21,300 So actual gain from TC glyph was something like 63K? Unless it means base mana prior that buff we get for being caster specced. Arf!?!?!
Water Shield 74664 mana

Fluffy Elegon 10N
Resurgence 174636 mana
Totemic Recall 70500 mana
Water Shield 32208 mana
Edited by Fluffy on 12/24/2012 12:46 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
No one should let me do math I am pretty sure that my above post makes no sense and is entirely wrong. Someone awesome come explain please.

*sips peppermint mocha*
Edited by Fluffy on 12/24/2012 12:48 PM PST
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