Absorb priority system with Eternal Flame.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
10520
I feel like there might be a problem with the way Holy paladins absorbs work with the priority system. Everything I read seems to suggest that the absorb with the shortest active duration left is chosen first when dmg is taken. But Eternal Flame refreshes our absorbs with every tick. This Isnt something that sounds bad because the more dmg that is mitigated the better and keeping little shields on everyone is great, but our absorbs are getting used less and less with gear scaling and haste breakpoints.

It feels like when we bring 3 healers (10m-H) its overkill and keeping a good hps/hpm is hard and the dmg is spikey. But if we drop to 2 heals my absorbs and e(hps) skyrockets but im forced into a tank healing role. I mean look at where pallies were and where we are now on WoL. Now Priests and monks cover the page of Heroic HoF logs.
  • Is this where blizz is trying to take holy pallies again ?
  • and if so where does that leave Eternal Flame blanketing ?
  • Edited by Bluephase on 12/26/2012 11:37 AM PST
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    There's a problem with the way Hpally and Disc absorbs work with Druid HoTs, or rather, how they don't...

    iMadbro
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    I feel like there might be a problem with the way Holy paladins absorbs work with the priority system. Everything I read seems to suggest that the absorb with the shortest active duration left is chosen first when dmg is taken. But Eternal Flame refreshes our absorbs with every tick. This Isnt something that sounds bad because the more dmg that is mitigated the better and keeping little shields on everyone is great, but our absorbs are getting used less and less with gear scaling and haste breakpoints.

    It feels like when we bring 3 healers (10m-H) its overkill and keeping a good hps/hpm is hard and the dmg is spikey. But if we drop to 2 heals my absorbs and e(hps) skyrockets but im forced into a tank healing role. I mean look at where pallies were and where we are now on WoL. Now Priests and monks cover the page of Heroic HoF logs.
  • Is this where blizz is trying to take holy pallies again ?
  • and if so where does that leave Eternal Flame blanketing ?


  • Have you looked at WOL recently? and if you have, have you actually looked at the date of those logs?
    Not only are holy paladins there, the monks that were there before all were recorded before the 5.1 hotfixes. Holy paladins are top, so are disc priests top. Why are you complaining about something irrelevant as HPS/HPM, when in actual healing scenarios you are only surpassed by a disc priest (which I say needs a nerf).

    Why are you complaining about MONKS (the worst healer there is) ? I wish this was a necro but sadly it isn't, seems like this post was made a month ago and only got posted today.

    Edit : are you complaining that your class actually has good single target healing as well?
    Edited by Venomheart on 12/26/2012 12:21 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    6590
    I feel like there might be a problem with the way Holy paladins absorbs work with the priority system. Everything I read seems to suggest that the absorb with the shortest active duration left is chosen first when dmg is taken. But Eternal Flame refreshes our absorbs with every tick. This Isnt something that sounds bad because the more dmg that is mitigated the better and keeping little shields on everyone is great, but our absorbs are getting used less and less with gear scaling and haste breakpoints.

    It feels like when we bring 3 healers (10m-H) its overkill and keeping a good hps/hpm is hard and the dmg is spikey. But if we drop to 2 heals my absorbs and e(hps) skyrockets but im forced into a tank healing role. I mean look at where pallies were and where we are now on WoL. Now Priests and monks cover the page of Heroic HoF logs.
  • Is this where blizz is trying to take holy pallies again ?
  • and if so where does that leave Eternal Flame blanketing ?


  • Looking at WoL is stupid. The front page is filled with people single healing or specifically having the raid take more damage from avoidable damage to make the healers look better. And how does having haste breakpoints make your absorbs less important?
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    90 Worgen Druid
    4810
    Sounds like you're trying to attack too many issues at once, so let's break it down:

    1) What is the priority for absorbs?

    - I don't know the answer tbh, but this could be tested fairly easily. Personally, my answer is "it doesn't matter" because the LARGE majority of my shields will ALWAYS be consumed. Whether they are consumed in the first 5 seconds or they are consumed in the last 5 seconds is essentially irrelevant to me. (in other words, yes it would be nice to know, but it wouldn't change a darn thing)

    2) Does EF's mechanic that refreshes and updates the IH absorb amount affect it in a negative way?

    - IMO No, it does not. Even if it pushed your absorb to the back of the 'priority list' it is still going to be an effective absorb. Again, I really don't care if it's absorbed immediately or if it's absorbed just before it falls off. If it's not absorbed AT ALL, then there are likely other more important issues to address.

    3) Is this where Blizz is taking pallys again?

    - I'm honestly not sure what you're hinting at. Are you suggesting that we will soon be back to the days of being exclusive tank healers? Sounds kinda crazy considering you are also talking about blanketing HoTs on your raid. Could we become stronger in the tank healing role than the raid healing role? Sure, but I don't see how that's an issue unless you just don't want to tank heal in which case you probably chose the wrong class (or role).

    4) When we 3 heal vs. 2 heal

    - Well of course your numbers are going to skyrocket since you are effectively doing 50% more healing than you were with 3 heals. Not sure what else to comment on here, somebody has to heal the tank /shrug
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10520
    lol I am surprised at how angry people sound when they reply on here. I asked a pair of questions as nicely as I could word, yet somehow I am complaining and you would think that i personally offended you. I feel that the question is fair and valid and in no way complaining. And have yet to get an answer:

    I do more than look at the front page of WoL and am aware of more factors than I care to get into since i posted about a cut and dry topic. Maybe I did not do as well of a job as i could have of explaining my questions. And as a reply to Keirisonis our haste breakpoints add another tick to our Eternal Flame which refreshes our absorption bubble. There is a mechanic that prioritizes absorption by the shortest duration left on one. What I am asking or saying is that as we get more haste our shields will be refreshing faster and making them last on the priority system thus making our #1 healing spell (illuminated healing) less effective and with the additional changes to (Hand of Purity "reducing all incomming dmg by 10% - and Self Cast Word of Glory increasing healing to self by 100%") in the 5.2 patch notes, this leads me to believe that we are being pushed back into being tank healers. This makes me wonder where this will leave Eternal flame blanketing in the comming tier. I just want to hear from others with constructive/insightfull input not negative off topic bickering. Thanks.
    Reply Quote
    and Self Cast Word of Glory increasing healing to self by 100%
    Why would this change matter at all?


    additional changes to (Hand of Purity "reducing all incomming dmg by 10%
    How does this affect eternal flame? given that they are different talent tiers.

    What I am asking or saying is that as we get more haste our shields will be refreshing faster and making them last on the priority system thus making our #1 healing spell (illuminated healing) less effective


    If all damage is absorbed, people aren't in danger of dying, why does it matter if illuminated healing was used for the absorb or not? In fact, it's better if it isn't used because it's not replaced easily.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10520
    Sounds like you're trying to attack too many issues at once, so let's break it down:

    1) What is the priority for absorbs?

    - I don't know the answer tbh, but this could be tested fairly easily. Personally, my answer is "it doesn't matter" because the LARGE majority of my shields will ALWAYS be consumed. Whether they are consumed in the first 5 seconds or they are consumed in the last 5 seconds is essentially irrelevant to me. (in other words, yes it would be nice to know, but it wouldn't change a darn thing)

    This is what im saying: The majority of my raid healing is being soaked by the Priests absorbs making my effective healing via illuminated healing tank.

    2) Does EF's mechanic that refreshes and updates the IH absorb amount affect it in a negative way?

    - IMO No, it does not. Even if it pushed your absorb to the back of the 'priority list' it is still going to be an effective absorb. Again, I really don't care if it's absorbed immediately or if it's absorbed just before it falls off. If it's not absorbed AT ALL, then there are likely other more important issues to address.

    Its not negative from a raid / raid leaders point of view but from a personal performance point of view its much harder to judge where we are best used.

    3) Is this where Blizz is taking pallys again?

    - I'm honestly not sure what you're hinting at. Are you suggesting that we will soon be back to the days of being exclusive tank healers? Sounds kinda crazy considering you are also talking about blanketing HoTs on your raid. Could we become stronger in the tank healing role than the raid healing role? Sure, but I don't see how that's an issue unless you just don't want to tank heal in which case you probably chose the wrong class (or role).

    If our raid healing suffers enough then I feel as if we would be best used in tank healing. This is not a complaint just a change from where we have been best used in the last few tiers.


    4) When we 3 heal vs. 2 heal

    - Well of course your numbers are going to skyrocket since you are effectively doing 50% more healing than you were with 3 heals. Not sure what else to comment on here, somebody has to heal the tank /shrug

    This is not what i mean by doing more hps hpm i mean that the effectiveness of my playstyle works much better with less healers but forces me to use another playstyle to fill the gap of the tank healer.
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    90 Worgen Druid
    4810
    editing
    Edited by Duboomchikin on 12/26/2012 1:25 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10520
    12/26/2012 01:16 PMPosted by Venomheart
    and Self Cast Word of Glory increasing healing to self by 100%
    Why would this change matter at all?


    additional changes to (Hand of Purity "reducing all incomming dmg by 10%
    How does this affect eternal flame? given that they are different talent tiers.

    What I am asking or saying is that as we get more haste our shields will be refreshing faster and making them last on the priority system thus making our #1 healing spell (illuminated healing) less effective


    If all damage is absorbed, people aren't in danger of dying, why does it matter if illuminated healing was used for the absorb or not? In fact, it's better if it isn't used because it's not replaced easily.


    #1 Because hand of sacrifice transferes dmg to the pally
    #2 Never said it played with eternal flame (but it is a tank CD for tank healing)
    #3 All/most dmg is being absorbed via other healers absorbs so it never gets used making it pointless to Eternal flame blanket.
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    90 Orc Warrior
    12805
    12/26/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Bluephase
    lol I am surprised at how angry people sound when they reply on here. I asked a pair of questions as nicely as I could word, yet somehow I am complaining and you would think that i personally offended you. I feel that the question is fair and valid and in no way complaining


    I mean look at where pallies were and where we are now on WoL. Now Priests and monks cover the page of Heroic HoF logs.Is this where blizz is trying to take holy pallies again ?and if so where does that leave Eternal Flame blanketing ?


    That is complaining and pretending that paladins aren't in a very good place at the moment.

    Blizzard doesn't seem to be a fan of blanket healing as of late. I think you may be overthinking this. Paladins are fine. Be happy. Well i guess paladins are always fine so meh.
    Edited by Gyute on 12/26/2012 1:27 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10520
    12/26/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Duboomchikin
    editing


    I was making a post while you posted im sorry for not being faster.
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    #3 All/most dmg is being absorbed via other healers absorbs so it never gets used making it pointless to Eternal flame blanket.


    You realize that also means life bars don't go below 100%.

    #1 Because hand of sacrifice transferes dmg to the pally
    Ahh, forgot about that. I'd imagine they'd have self cast eternal flame do double as well.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10520

    Blizzard doesn't seem to be a fan of blanket healing as of late. I think you may be overthinking this. Paladins arer fine. Be happy. Well i guess paladins are always fine so meh.

    That is all I am trying to say lol I think Blizzard is trying to push us into a different playstyle because they dont like or blanket healing. I am just wondering if we will be tank healing in 5.2 and if so will we be dropping eternal flame.....
    Reply Quote
    Well my reply was meant to be lighthearted, and maybe you did or didn't catch on to that, however...

    I'll admit, it's pretty disgusting as an Rdruid to see an Hpally complain about their "absorbs being used less and less" when I'm getting HoT-blocked endlessly by your absorbs. Not to mention when you said Eternal Flame refreshes your shields with EVERY tick, and now you want MORE ticks. It's like adding insult to injury.
    Reply Quote
    90 Worgen Druid
    4810
    Sounds like you're trying to attack too many issues at once, so let's break it down:

    1) What is the priority for absorbs?

    - I don't know the answer tbh, but this could be tested fairly easily. Personally, my answer is "it doesn't matter" because the LARGE majority of my shields will ALWAYS be consumed. Whether they are consumed in the first 5 seconds or they are consumed in the last 5 seconds is essentially irrelevant to me. (in other words, yes it would be nice to know, but it wouldn't change a darn thing)

    This is what im saying: The majority of my raid healing is being soaked by the Priests absorbs making my effective healing via illuminated healing tank.


    Aww, so you're saying that priest absorbs are CANCELLING your Illuminated Healing? Do you have any logs/data/numbers that would show that this is happening by chance? IH has a long enough duration that it's very unlikely that a substantial amount of absorbs are being lost through others absorbs. What makes you think this is happening? (genuinely curious)


    2) Does EF's mechanic that refreshes and updates the IH absorb amount affect it in a negative way?

    - IMO No, it does not. Even if it pushed your absorb to the back of the 'priority list' it is still going to be an effective absorb. Again, I really don't care if it's absorbed immediately or if it's absorbed just before it falls off. If it's not absorbed AT ALL, then there are likely other more important issues to address.

    Its not negative from a raid / raid leaders point of view but from a personal performance point of view its much harder to judge where we are best used.


    Figuring out "where you are best used" is exactly the raid leaders job though. Your main concern should be completing that task as well as you possibly can. Now, if the only thing you *want* is to destroy meters, then you should put yourself in the role that will pump out the most numbers. However, I won't be the first or last to tell you that HPS and sheer healing numbers are not the "end all, be all" of healing prowess.


    3) Is this where Blizz is taking pallys again?

    - I'm honestly not sure what you're hinting at. Are you suggesting that we will soon be back to the days of being exclusive tank healers? Sounds kinda crazy considering you are also talking about blanketing HoTs on your raid. Could we become stronger in the tank healing role than the raid healing role? Sure, but I don't see how that's an issue unless you just don't want to tank heal in which case you probably chose the wrong class (or role).

    If our raid healing suffers enough then I feel as if we would be best used in tank healing. This is not a complaint just a change from where we have been best used in the last few tiers.


    Yeah this is pretty much what I figured you were hinting at. Idk, I see this as a good thing as long as we aren't neutered too hard in the other role. A lot of paladins kept tank healing even in DS where we were OP, so I see it being quite unlikely that they neuter our raid healing to the point where you don't have a choice (even if that choice is slightly sub-optimal)



    4) When we 3 heal vs. 2 heal

    - Well of course your numbers are going to skyrocket since you are effectively doing 50% more healing than you were with 3 heals. Not sure what else to comment on here, somebody has to heal the tank /shrug

    This is not what i mean by doing more hps hpm i mean that the effectiveness of my playstyle works much better with less healers but forces me to use another playstyle to fill the gap of the tank healer.


    If the EF-blanketing style is the only style you enjoy then the only advice I can give you is find a guild or create a guild where you call the shots. Not many guilds are going to sacrifice guild-wide success for the personal success/e-peen of one person on the team. This is likely something you should just let be known, but don't be offended if you can't always be accommodated.
    Edited by Duboomchikin on 12/26/2012 1:34 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10520
    12/26/2012 01:30 PMPosted by Venomheart
    #3 All/most dmg is being absorbed via other healers absorbs so it never gets used making it pointless to Eternal flame blanket.


    You realize that also means life bars don't go below 100%.

    #1 Because hand of sacrifice transferes dmg to the pally
    Ahh, forgot about that. I'd imagine they'd have self cast eternal flame do double as well.


    Yes I do and if youve played a holy pally lately i think it would make more sense what im getting at. It would be like you casting a PW:Shield or divine aeges and it going to waste before it expires its extremely annoying for an EF playstyle
    Reply Quote
    90 Worgen Druid
    4810

    I was making a post while you posted im sorry for not being faster.


    No worries =p

    Also, just ignore the posters who aren't helpful. If they aren't here to help, they're here to ____.
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    90 Orc Warrior
    12805
    12/26/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Bluephase
    It would be like you casting a PW:Shield or divine aeges and it going to waste before it expires its extremely annoying for an EF playstyle


    Then you are casting heals when no one needs healing and wasting your time anyway. When EF is cast at the correct time it is a very powerful spell. When it is cast at the wrong time it is a very powerful waste.
    Reply Quote
    Yes I do and if youve played a holy pally lately i think it would make more sense what im getting at. It would be like you casting a PW:Shield or divine aeges and it going to waste before it expires its extremely annoying for an EF playstyle


    Keeping shields up especially when EF refreshes shields isn't hard. I've played both priest and monks this tier. Healers with absorb mechanics have no right to complain at the moment.
    Absorb mechanics put healers above the rest : thus disc priest then hpaladin then everyone else who doesn't have absorbs.

    Think absorbs as not of something wasted but something that might be used. Healing is wasted too easily. Absorbs are better than raw healing at all times. I feel blizzard needs to change this dynamic.
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