Time To Fix Balance Druid PvP and Patch 5.2

90 Night Elf Druid
8540
This is my first major contribution to the forums, so I would like to apologize ahead of time for any mistakes I have made.

I have been a long time fan of balance druid PvP, I started to main one in Cataclysm. For the last three years I have played one and I have enjoyed the fact that they are the underdog, i.e. difficult to play, yet rewarding (The opposite of my frost DK). First off, balance druids were balanced around them being able to cast their major dps spells starfire and wrath. In a PvP situation we are never given the chance to hard cast such an ability.

To do a little comparison between balance druid's and another caster (I could choose any but Destro Warlocks are the most similar so for the sake of maximizing my argument here goes)

Starfire is comparable to chaos bolt, however the major difference is that while both have a resource cost (burning ember/eclipse) and both have a massive cast time, Warlocks can cast this spell while moving AND they have a 100% crit chance on the spell (averaging about 110k damage). In addition to this Warlocks have an instant cast CC (blood fear) which allows them to use this ability. Now the changes in 5.2 are absolutely gutting cyclone by vastly increasing its DR, druids if they are specced into natures swiftness can use an instant CC, which would allow us to get off a starfire (which would only hit for about 40k), and only if one managed to time the cast to occur right at the very end of cyclone because cyclone makes a target completely immune to damage. Now if one opts to chose to NS roots or hard cast roots instead of cyclone then the boomkin has to contend with the problem that roots will be broken by a 30-40k starfire, roots are easily dispelled (HoF, Dispel, Avatar, list is endless). Because of the obvious aforementioned reasons, boomkins in pvp dont hard cast, we simply dont get the chance to.

What do we do instead? We multidot. The one good thing about boomkins is that our dots do put out some awesome pressure, comparable to a shadow priest or an affliction lock. But as everyone knows dot cleave is alot less effective then cc burst. Few boomkins are gemming/reforging straight haste like we did in Cata because the benefits just arent there, with the way starsurge works it is much better for us to multi dot and pray to the RNG gods that we will get a few starsurge procs, and that said starsurge procs will crit. As a crit mastery boomkin, I can do a little number crunching here.

With 14% crit (which is slightly more than what I have).
moon/sunfire tick 8 times each before expiring, which is a total of 16 ticks per target that I have both dots applied to which means that over the course of my dots ticking is 14 seconds (15 if you count the GCD between the spells) So how many of those "OP boomkin star surge procs" do I get per target? Statistically speaking, 0.73 star surge procs per 14 seconds of dot uptime. Over the course of 16 ticks I will get 2.24 of the 16 to crit, with each crit giving a 33% chance to proc my instant star surge. So in a 1v1 match boomkins can only hope to put out pressure, because we have literally no burst. Now lets go to the 2v2 section of pvp, I still have the 0.73% chance per dot tick to proc an instant star surge, but I can dot both targets and have 32 dot ticks in 17 seconds (again counting gcds) which means that my chance to proc starsurge is now a whooping 1.46% per 17 seconds. Not to mention that in a pvp situation one can not always keep dots active on all targets because our dots break cc. But wait! There is more! Our dots are unlike any other dot class, we have a complete lack of dispel protection. Naturally looking at these facts one can only assume that boomkins are in for a much needed nerf in 5.2! This assumption is what I like to call, dead wrong. You would be very very very very wrong to assume that boomkins need to have their cc (cyclone), their survivability/mobility (Displacer Beast) nerfed. Just because resto druids are considered OP doesnt mean that Balance druids should suffer the same consequences as them.

Blizzard recently released its plan for Windwalker monks, which is that they will be continually buffed until they are proportionally represented in PvP. I would ask that blizzard also do this for balance druids! The best balance druids in the world do not play balance in 2s, they all play resto. Most of them do not play balance in 3s either, they still play resto. The only time that a balance druid is a welcome addition to any team is in RBG’s (which are incredibly broken thanks to win traders) and in 5v5s where you and your friends get to wait around for a 30 minute que only to que into a 2.6k team and one of your friends missed the que because he was alt tabbed listening to music with skype muted. To succeed as a balance druid in todays PvP arena is incredibly difficult. I absolutely respect anyone that can do it, and while I have only just started to pvp seriously (hence my lack of achievements, I used to slay dragons /shrug), I can see that there are major flaws in our play style. Blizzard and other game developers have yet to throw us boomys a bone and I feel that it is because we have been the silent minority, , the squeaky wheel gets the grease so to speak. Mage’s Paladin’s Rogue’s they all have a much larger player population than boomkins and that is why they will always be viable if not OP, those classes are where the money is. When I started boomkin pvp (casually of course) in cata, I found very few up to date moonkin guides, because most moonkins had switched to feral if they wanted to dps, or just gone to resto. The dedicated balance druid has been stepped on for far to long and frankly I figured we were do for a buff, you can only imagine my shock when I read the 5.2 patch notes. Now since I don’t want to just sit here and QQ about broken boomkins, I invite this thread to be a place where we can discuss how to balance moonkins.

For starters our survivability just disappeared with the Displacer Beast nerf. My personal suggestion would be that blizzard implements the changes suggested in 5.2 for resto only, which is what the change was intended to fix.

Boomkins need a way to be able to cast our hard hitting damage spells, and these spells need to be worth our time to cast. This means a damage buff, however, failing that boomkins base crit could be increased to allow for more starsurge procs. Today in a 2v2 match my partner (resto sham) and I beat a resto sham frost mage because I got incredibly lucky and procced 3 star surges that all crit one after another. I could crunch the numbers and post the chance of that happening, but we all know it is a .0000000001% chance of occurring. Since I doubt that starfire or wrath will ever be buffed, I would like to see shooting stars also make starsurge a guaranteed crit when it procs and increase the proc rate to be 60% of every dot crit. This would mean that we finally would have some much needed burst

And lastly moonkins are incredibly squishy, but have always gotten around this thanks to our great mobility, however sometimes we do need to heal ourselves like all hybrid caster dps (shadow priests/ele shamans). While shadow and ele each have fast expensive heals that heal a lot i.e. healing surge and flash of light, the boomkin has healing touch. Healing touch for a boomkin should most definitely be replaced by regrowth so that we have the same healing capacity as other hybrid casters

I ask all boomkin pvpers to put in their in put and contribute to this thread, hopefully if we come up with good enough ideas Blizzard will be able to implement them and fix our broken spec.

Thank you for your time.
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87 Night Elf Priest
3305
so true, druids everywhere need get some force behind this!

crazy how balance druids are being entirely replaced by monks and the new ring of peace ability, making balance druids redundant
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90 Night Elf Druid
8540
Something else I neglected mention was that often I see frost mages on the forums complaining about the cast time on frostbolt, which is a full second shorter than starfire, and with haste figured in, about as long a cast as wrath. Not to mention the changes to mass entanglement in 5.2 will give us a type of "freeze" ability, i.e. with a longer cooldown and no shatter procs.

Another way to fix balance druids would be to make wrath successful casts lower the cast time of successfull starfire casts, much like how shadow priests have the cast time of mind blast lowered by mind spike casts. Just some more food for thought.
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90 Tauren Druid
11485
I dont disagree with anything you just said . druids are very squishy and other then cosmetic purposes wrath and starfire hold no place in Bg's let alone arena's . I cant remember the last time i cast either one of them and not because i dont want to , I just dont have enough time . the hard cast is equivalent to pyroblast with a quater of the damage. Its really sad , but blizzard hasnt changed boomkins in 8 years and i doubt there gonna do it now.
Bottom line either get used to starsurge procs, starfall CD and moonfire spamming or you need to reroll .
Right now druids are as buffed as there ever gonna be and blizzard is about to nerf them. and its really sad , finally i can take out frost mages, locks, and hunter and for my reward i get nerfed .
Back to not being able to beat any class, GG Blizzard for making boomkins suck again!
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90 Night Elf Druid
8540
Exactly, well I hope with enough momentum Blizzard will come to their senses. And boomkins in rbgs and 5s are fine, and I love playing mine. However, i do remember in cata when a fresh 85 rogue could global a fully geared boomkin, I really hope that some major changes are made. I don't want to be OP, I love playing a skill cap class, I just want to be viable
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90 Worgen Druid
9810
I agree!
Boomkin PvPers unite!
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70 Draenei Priest
5930
I've never played a balance druid in PvP, but my friend Frazzy did back in wrath and in early cata. But still, as you said
01/02/2013 03:26 PMPosted by Aqual
the squeaky wheel gets the grease so to speak. Mage’s Paladin’s Rogue’s they all have a much larger player population than boomkins and that is why they will always be viable if not OP, those classes are where the money is.
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90 Worgen Druid
6535
What annoys me is the fact that PvP in this xpac so far has been all about burst, if you don't burst you don't win. I personally enjoy being the dot freak, doing tons of damage with the constant pressure of every one dying at the same time like with LSD2, Fire MLS, Shadowplay and Spicy Chicken Cleave in cataclysm. With the release of Mists however, the dot comps have pretty become obsolete, leaving us boomys and affliction locks in the dust. The warrior's second wind, the resto druid's crazy hots, the need for locks to use malefic grasp on a target to do viable damage are all examples of what wrong with the dot classes this patch. This idea of burst being the only way to be a half way decent comp is stupid and it leads to a very mundane future in the wow pvp community having only one form of damage. Even the burst classes at a high rating would agree that it is no fun waiting in 10 minute ques for arena games that last on average less that 45 seconds. And if pvp in this expansion is all about burst, why is our only form of viable burst not only unreliable but DISPELLABLE? I also agree that it is silly that we are one of the only classes that do not have dot protection, it come be something simple like each time one of our dots is dispelled, we would gain a shooting star proc that could stack. On an unrelated note, Bring back Insect Swarm! I miss having a dominant eclipse. D:
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90 Troll Druid
8815
The real issue is that PvE and PvP require some sort of cooperation, and from the looks of it boomkin is quite low on most of the simulators available compared to other classes. Even though boomkins tend to be simulated towards the bottom in raids, PvP however is where our damage outshines almost all.

The key here is the loss of a PvE-based rotation, we don't lose nearly as much damage trying to survive AND deal damage, while other's are forced to selectively use spells and abilities to either fake interrupts or peel off of themselves or their partners. Boomkin can fare very well by using all instant cast abilities: Sunfire/Moonfire/Starsurge procs/typhoon etc... The concept is that we sacrifice the least damage of all in PvP settings.

I've seen more and more recent complaints against boomkins, and I completely agree that instant starsurge procs combined with CD stacking is completely broken and mindless. There is no way to stop it unless you have the ability to control us for that entire duration. An ideal solution to appease both PvE and PvP would be to buff dot damage/Wrath/Starfire, while slightly nerfing starsurge damage to eliminate that 100-0 die in a global possibility.

With the launch of MoP, many classes turned into the one shot machines, and boomkin is no exception. Just because we are a rare occurrence to find in an arena, doesn't mean we should have special treatment or be completely ignored. Having our kill opportunities based on 4 or more 3 minute cooldowns isn't the right direction for arenas or PvP in general.

The displacer beast change isn't necessarily a nerf either. The 50% sprint afterwards will most likely help balance druids against the high population of cleave teams like KFC/Kittycleave/PHDK/Turbo, allowing us to aim for the nearest pillar that your healer is at and just sprinting out of LoS but still in line of your healer. If anything I consider it a buff, especially since it can be used offensively to chase down people trying to pillar you. I'm also interested to see how much they are buffing treants as far as damage. If it is a significant increase, it may be worth using situationally against teams that tend to train boomkins to the ground.

I agree that boomkins should be able to pressure multiple targets with dots, but the problem is that we do the same damage while being trained as we do while we are free. I want to be able to punish players for not keeping control of me, as opposed to doing the same simple priority game after game.
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90 Worgen Druid
6535
They could possibly do this by adding a mechanic to starfire and wrath which decreases the cast time of the spells each time we cast them by 10 percent or so and stacks for times, kinda like the arcane mages arcane blast, and it also increases the proc chance of shooting stars? But I agree I'm totally against the stupid starsurge damage along with any forms of the ridiculous burst
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90 Night Elf Druid
8540
Verze, Woofkin, I agree that the mindlessness of starsurge procs is just plain stupid and doesnt take any skill. However I dont think the solution is to nerf our burst, I think the solution is to make our burst something we build to and then pop cool downs on, also in pvp I have used displacer beast to pounce clone people countless times and I have used it to avoid chaos bolts etc. I definitely see it as a nerf, if I wanted to chase someone down I would go travel form or I would pop stampeding roar. In an rbg setting I usually do between 10-18 million damage which is a lot, and if I am not first I am usually second to the frost dk. Our dots and fighting multiple opponents is where we shine but our damage really hurts if we are only fighting one or two players. Also the tl;dr of my first post was that we are not comparable to other hybrid casters, and we lack viability in the 2v2 arena (except in comps like Dancing With The Stars)

Also on another note perhaps the most annoying mechanic in game is the fact that our eclipse starts generating solar energy instead of eclipse so we have to channel or cast to get to lunar which is by far our best eclipse (touching on woofkins "no dominant eclipse") Starfall's cd being reset every lunar eclipse is awesome, but having eclipse energy default to solar is useless, perhaps this could be remedied by a minor glyph?

01/02/2013 07:53 PMPosted by Verze
agree that boomkins should be able to pressure multiple targets with dots, but the problem is that we do the same damage while being trained as we do while we are free. I want to be able to punish players for not keeping control of me, as opposed to doing the same simple priority game after game.


^ i also heavily agree with this quote. Should we get the chance to hardcast it should be a game changer and would make games revolve around getting the focus off the boomkin (who when focussed can do what we do now, multidot, kite, pray etc.)

Also I would like to push the idea of replacing Healing Touch with Regrowth because we need a fast expensive heal in pvp situations just like our other hybrid caster counter parts ele/shadow
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90 Night Elf Druid
9265
01/02/2013 08:54 PMPosted by Woofkin
They could possibly do this by adding a mechanic to starfire and wrath which decreases the cast time of the spells each time we cast them by 10 percent or so and stacks for times


We already have natures grace buff to speed up our casts, but with its short duration its rare you can take advantage of the haste in a pvp situation.

Im not really keen on your suggestion but i think you're going in the right direction. We need something that enables us to hardcast easier/faster but isnt completely wasted if there is movement or cc.

The PVE moonkins are calling out for changes to help with movement, eclipse cycling and natures grace being a bit more adaptable. The right solution would work for both PVP and PVE.

...stuffs me what that solution is though.
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90 Worgen Druid
6535
how about each starsurge from a shooting stars proc allows us to cast two wraths or starfires while moving, stacking up to 3 times, also Nature's Grace is no longer controlled really do to it proccing as soon as we enter eclipse and not being to proc again until we enter our next eclipse which i suppose is a buff in pve, but it is a pretty big nerf in pvp
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90 Night Elf Druid
6595
I read your post and after pvp'ing late in this patch, I could not agree more. In fact, I was about to make the same post just now.
I agree with your view on boomkins and our much needed damage buffs, but we must keep in mind that PVE must NOT be affected.
I think it's absurd that we only put out 1/4 of the damage of a warrior equally geared as us in a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 scenario and get bursted down 4x as fast. However, if we were to buff our burst, the dragon slayers would no doubt QQ about us being too viable. You see, pve'ers get full uptime on casts, but we don't. Therefore starsurge procs ARE are only viable means for damage in scenarios with limited numbers of enemies. I agree that starsurge should always crit, but starsurge damage is gimmicky and ridiculous. I hit well geared opponents for 200k crits when all CD's are popped but it hits for 30k non crits otherwise.
Therefore, I think starsurge should always crit, but reduce the damage of it by ~30%. This may seem like a lot, but I'd also like to see boomie's crit scaling increased, so that we can use more starsurges, and so that crit doesn't get devalued as a stat.
After getting globalled far too often and globalling others sometimes as well, I'm throwing in all my cards. Boomkins need a change.

TL;DR reduce starsurge damage by 30%, make it always crit, and increase crit scaling. I'd like us to sit at around 25% crit or so.
Thoughts?
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90 Troll Druid
8815

TL;DR reduce starsurge damage by 30%, make it always crit, and increase crit scaling. I'd like us to sit at around 25% crit or so.
Thoughts?


Unless the give it the Chaos Bolt treatment and have crit rating increase the base damage, it would drop the value of crit way too much. But even if this were to get changed, it wouldn't take us away from the 3 minute heroes that we are right now, because hard casting for all classes (Aside from destro locks) isn't rewarding enough.

With the amount of interrupts and avoidance abilities currently in this game I can't understand why classes are rewarded more for running around using solely instant casts, as opposed to hard casting nukes. It takes away the skill of 'setting up' kills, when you can hit 1 macro with all of your burst cooldowns/trinkets etc... and just pray that your target dies.

http://www.twitch.tv/save_85/b/353346041

Go about 18 minutes in on the video and that should start up some of the games I had against these guys. Savek/Tupaclol/dominoz are incredibly nice people, as well as glad level players. I just want to give you an idea of how mongoloid our damage can really become, and how weak we are outside of our 3 minute CDs.

If you get the chance, follow his stream. He is a great disc priest, and tends to sing korean music randomly.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6595
I'd have to disagree a bit on the three minute heroes note. The ability that is really volatile for boomkin is starsurge, and if it were to crit every time, but for less damage, then every 3 minutes we'd be doing less damage, and for the rest of the time, we'd do more. Plus, an auto crit would refresh our dots as well, which would contribute to better damage, theoretically.
I never said we weren't mongoloid, we need a damage nerf in some places and a buff in others, but NOT in the manner that others are suggesting, which needs a complete overhaul in our rotation, which would take Blizzard months at the minimum. A quick hotfix of some sort is needed quickly. I'm sure there are better suggestions, but mine wouldn't make our situation worse.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14620
Moonkin damage has been absurdly high in every RBG season and most arena ones. However they need to rework the cast times on our spells because for pvp, if we can't cast and move we need quicker cast times to compensate for the imbalance compared to other casters.

Warlocks can now cast and move eliminating potential weaknesses with malefic grasp / destro.

Mages have short cast times and can do more direct damage with their spells than us, but they've always been top tier.

Spriests have no cast time above 1.5 seconds apart from mindflay which ticks every 1 second making their pressure very sustained.

Ele shamans have a 1.8ish cast time on a movable spell and a 1.5 second on lava burst.

I emphasize on the fact we must plant our feet to achieve similar results. Even then our spells aren't that devastating outside of CDs, which are quite broken.

@ Verze lol damage is retarded, but not really fair to compare it to a disc priest, the weakest healer.

TLDR

Buff Moonkin Survivability (Read: Necessary change)
Reduce Moonkin cast times
Shift a bit of moonkin damage from aoe cleave into direct, without the 5 year cast times w/o NG.
Moonkin burst will be nerfed in patch which was needed but we need compensation first.

They don't read class forums best to tweet stuff like this to GC.
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