Ret Paladin Feedback post healing nerf

71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
This thread is for the PvP portion of the game. Nothing I will suggest will effect PvE in a game breaking manner. Please be constructive even if you disagree. I will not answer troll posts. I'm very concerned for the state of PvP and the Retribution spec in specific.

If you haven't heard by now:
The Battle Fatigue healing reduction debuff has been increased to 30% (was 15%).

Healing for some classes was out of control. I think any pvp'er who is competent will admit that. Burst Healing (as well as burst damage) was (dmg still is) out of control.

Here is the issue with Blizzard using yet another blanket healing nerf to "fix" pvp.

Some classes (enhancement shaman, retribution paladin, elemental shaman, etc.) were NOT overpowered or over represented in arena 3v3 rank of RBG's. For the sake of time I will focus this thread on Retribution Paladin.

Here is the issue with the new healing nerf. Anyone who has played a retribution paladin knows that healing is broken into 2 catagories for the paladin. 1) Group utility. 2) Player Survivability. Now what Blizzard did with 2 foul swoops (pvp power change for hybrids, Battle Fatigue buff to 30%) The Retribution Class, though I admit overpowered with the full benefit of Pvp Power, has been completely gutted with these past 2 sweeping changes.

1) Utility: What is the point of Bringing a Ret Paladin with you in you're 3v3 or RBG?
Answer: Off Healing, Support Burst Damage, Freedom, Hand of Protection, among other buffs (cleanse, kings, mastery, etc.)

What Blizzard has done with these 2 gamebreaking changes is completely changed the way a ret paladin functions in a group. My holy power is no longer useful for heals (gimped horrendously). Flash of light hits for about 23-24k in PVP right now. The issues this brings is not only the utility portion (the whole reason to bring a Ret paladin), but to survivability.

2) Survivability: Ret Paladin do not have a passive defensive buff like other plate classes. We have Bubble (pointless if you cant heal yourself while in it) Freedom (only true survivability now) and HoP (purgable) Divine Protection: Reduces Magic damage taken by 40%. and the BIG ONE. HEALS! well... no not anymore.

So I ask myself. Why? Why did blizzard nerf Ret Paladins? Well, they didn't. Or they didn't "mean to". Before the new hotfix Retribution was HARDLY viable. especially after losing all of our pvp power bonus to healing ~40%

So after gutting our PVP power healing ~40% nerf we recieved yet another healing nerf that was intended for OTHER classes by 15%.

These two nerfs combined are game changing, not just game changing, but character changing. as in I'm basically being forced to reroll to become viable.

(Before "omg bro your not even 2k rating" I got Duelist with this rogue back in season 3, for some reason or other I dont have the achievement) Maybe due to on and off cancellations, IDK
My point is I know a little bit about PvP. I've also played since Vanilla and have seen the roller coaster of nerf/buff that some classes go through.

So let me ask a serious question here: If Retribution Paladins were not overpowered before the hotfix, Why aren't they compensated for the nerf? Why do Retribution Paladins have to take the bullet so OTHER classes can get into the balanced "zone" so to speak?

In my entire history of playing this game, I've never seen a spec get taken from viable to completely gutted in just a few short weeks ALL thanks to nerfs that were never really intended for them in the first place. (hybrid healing was more focused on spriest being too powerful, I know I play one at 90, possibly Feral Druids, though I haven't played mine since Cata)

So before I go into my solutions to make Retribution Viable again let me ask the blizzard developers one very serious question I would LOVE to get an answer to.

What do you want my roll to be as a Retribution Paladin?

Please Devs, if you read this, I'd like you to come up with an answer. I bet you will struggle with it given the current state of this Specialization.

I've already laid out thier current issues, Utility, Survivability,
3rd issue if the first 2 aren't fixed, sustained damage (but I really hate the idea of increasing ANY classes damage at this point)

Solution to make Retribution Viable again
Utility: HEALS, yes Blizzard, the thing you just gutted from our class. I'd like to maybe have a bit of it back. Now the reason Ret Paladin had solid burst heals for our group members is because that is how Blizzard designed out selfless healer talent. It add a double effect to the heal and it can also crit, but again, with the recent changes even with the double effect its extremely weak.

My change: Give Hybrids 50% of the pvp power to healing: TWEAK THE NUMBERS FOR THE OVERPOWERED HYBRIDS. Change selfless healer to only add 50% additional effect to friendly targets instead of 100%. With this change, Our heals will once again be solid enough to heal up a bit during a bubble and heal our friendly targets without capping them with a big burst heal, giving us a little more surviability, but not making us too good at keeping friendlies up.

Look Blizzard You are the ones that designed the retribution paladin around being an off heal support class. You are the ones who gave us the lvl 30 talents that are completely based on our healing. You are the ones that made our survivability DEPEND on our self healing. You can't just take that away from us, especially mid season, and expect us to be viable still.

I really feel that this is the first time I've been forced to reroll to compete. I don't want to play a mage, a warrior, a lock, a hunter, or a healer for that matter. I want you to make Ret viable again. NOT OP. viable.

You know ret is in a sad state when the best ret paladin in the world (considered by many) Vanguards is struggling to figure out what to run with.

Please look into the Retribution Spec, we are in deep trouble with all these blanket nerfs to healing.

Thanks for the read.
-a very concerned, long-time customer.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9600
Classes that aren't healers shouldn't heal. Simple as that, it makes comps like SPriest/Boomkin/RSham or Ret/Spriest/RDruid too strong because even if you CC the healer the two DPS can heal for the 8 seconds of CC and you can never land a kill.

I agree that Ret needs a boost in survivability, but so do DK's and Rogues, and if they end up nerfing DStance Warriors will need something else as well. All melee die incredibly fast with the exception of Warriors because of their natural 25% damage reduction (and previously Second Wind, although with the healing nerf it now ticks for significantly less and can no longer outheal DPS). But giving Ret the ability to heal themselves or others isn't the answer. Ret still does very strong damage during CDs, the issue is they do no damage at any other point. If they want to fix Ret (and most classes, for that matter) they need to tone down CDs and give classes more sustained DPS. Make the game more about pressure and less about burst and PvP will improve greatly, nobody likes dying in a global.

I highly disagree that DPS classes should be able to heal, that imbalances the game and diminishes the usefulness of healers. If DPS can heal then a strong 3s comp would most likely be SPriest/Ret/Feral, because SPriests and Ferals are already ridiculously strong and if Rets can heal well also then that comp becomes crazy.

I understand your frustration, but at the same time Rets aren't the only ones in trouble. If you look at high tier 3s there are a lot of classes that are struggling, Disc Priests (though Shadow is ridiculous), Ret Paladins, Enh/Ele Shamans, Death Knights, Rogues, Warlocks, Monks (are there *any* high rated Monks of any spec?).

Classes with either low survivability (Rogues), or classes that can only do damage with CDs and the rest of the time they're just running around trying not to die (Warlocks) or classes that are just completely useless (Monks).

I love PvP and I do want it to improve, but they need to do a lot to fix WoW PvP, and buffing DPS heals isn't the answer as far as I'm concerned.
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100 Draenei Paladin
14230
12/15/2012 02:31 PMPosted by Rucati
Classes that aren't healers shouldn't heal


blood dk has all rights to heal himself and others.
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12/15/2012 02:31 PMPosted by Rucati
Classes that aren't healers shouldn't heal


Stopped reading here.
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
Classes that aren't healers shouldn't heal. Simple as that, it makes comps like SPriest/Boomkin/RSham or Ret/Spriest/RDruid too strong because even if you CC the healer the two DPS can heal for the 8 seconds of CC and you can never land a kill.

I agree that Ret needs a boost in survivability, but so do DK's and Rogues, and if they end up nerfing DStance Warriors will need something else as well. All melee die incredibly fast with the exception of Warriors because of their natural 25% damage reduction (and previously Second Wind, although with the healing nerf it now ticks for significantly less and can no longer outheal DPS). But giving Ret the ability to heal themselves or others isn't the answer. Ret still does very strong damage during CDs, the issue is they do no damage at any other point. If they want to fix Ret (and most classes, for that matter) they need to tone down CDs and give classes more sustained DPS. Make the game more about pressure and less about burst and PvP will improve greatly, nobody likes dying in a global.

I highly disagree that DPS classes should be able to heal, that imbalances the game and diminishes the usefulness of healers. If DPS can heal then a strong 3s comp would most likely be SPriest/Ret/Feral, because SPriests and Ferals are already ridiculously strong and if Rets can heal well also then that comp becomes crazy.

I understand your frustration, but at the same time Rets aren't the only ones in trouble. If you look at high tier 3s there are a lot of classes that are struggling, Disc Priests (though Shadow is ridiculous), Ret Paladins, Enh/Ele Shamans, Death Knights, Rogues, Warlocks, Monks (are there *any* high rated Monks of any spec?).

Classes with either low survivability (Rogues), or classes that can only do damage with CDs and the rest of the time they're just running around trying not to die (Warlocks) or classes that are just completely useless (Monks).

I love PvP and I do want it to improve, but they need to do a lot to fix WoW PvP, and buffing DPS heals isn't the answer as far as I'm concerned.


Your response I think is part of the problem. You make it seem as though 1 or 2 sweeping changes can fix pvp. When infact it will take looking into each individual spec to figure out what the issue is.

As for Ret Paladins, our class is DESIGNED around being able to throw out some heals. No, I'm not making that up, roll one and find out for yourself. We do good burst, but we dont have the kind of control that pure classes have, and hardly any more utility. That is because, again, HEALING is part of the retribution class. We are not the same. Ret is not the same as other classes and your "grouping" of classes/rolls/specs so to speak is quite insulting to a Ret paladin player. Our spec is specifically designed around the idea of off healing, our talents and abilities reflect that. The numbers just aren't there.

Thanks for the post.
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100 Pandaren Monk
8330
Your a DPS class. Your healing should be low.

/end thread.
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
Your a DPS class. Your healing should be low.

/end thread.


Wrong, we are a support class. DPS class is a term for PVE. This is a PVP thread.

Again, Retribution paladins are balanced around and made for off healing. our talents and abilities reflect that.
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100 Undead Warlock
11595
The problem, believe it or not, is that they got rid of the hybrid tax.

They'd love to give you heals, but they can't have you sacrifice dps for them without making ret unviable in PvE. Thus, they have to balance your heals around the fact that you are ideally as competent a dps as anyone else.

Back in ye olden hybrid tax days, you could actually have been half dps and half heals. Now, you're forced to be a full dps with a few heals thrown in for giggles, none of which are allowed to be very good.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9600

blood dk has all rights to heal himself and others.


Perhaps, but Blood DKs also don't do much damage in PvP. This is a PvP thread, I was talking about PvP specs, Blood is not a PvP spec.


Your response I think is part of the problem. You make it seem as though 1 or 2 sweeping changes can fix pvp. When infact it will take looking into each individual spec to figure out what the issue is.

As for Ret Paladins, our class is DESIGNED around being able to throw out some heals. No, I'm not making that up, roll one and find out for yourself. We do good burst, but we dont have the kind of control that pure classes have, and hardly any more utility. That is because, again, HEALING is part of the retribution class. We are not the same. Ret is not the same as other classes and your "grouping" of classes/rolls/specs so to speak is quite insulting to a Ret paladin player. Our spec is specifically designed around the idea of off healing, our talents and abilities reflect that. The numbers just aren't there.

Thanks for the post.


To really fix PvP they need to do to cooldowns what they did to the trinkets, half the CD and half the effect. Won't effect PvE because in a 10 minute fight it'll be the same, but it'll stop all the crazy burst. That alone would more or less fix PvP, would make it easier to heal through the damage even with the reduced healing, but would still make CC's very important to get good pressure going. Anyway, I digress.

Ret Paladins bring a lot to the table outside of off heals and strong burst. You mentioned it in your first post. Freedom is huge in arenas, especially against Mage teams, even if they spellsteal it you got your teammate out of trouble. BoP is amazing with all the cleave going around, Ferals and Warriors are both quite strong, being able to negate their damage completely even if it's only for 3 seconds is invaluable.

PvP broke when DPS classes started healing. If you look at Burning Crusade back when PvP was arguably at its best, all the DPS classes DPS'd and all the healing classes healed and games were 5 minutes long and fun, instead of now they're either 30 seconds long cause someone died in a global, or 20 minutes long because of all the healing and unlimited mana it takes forever to land a kill.

I actually think that maybe DPS classes could heal if DPS classes had a mana pool at all. Boomkins, Ret Paladins, Ele Shamans, Enh Shamans, SPriests, none of them really run out of mana, well I guess SPriests do but they can easily get it back with Disperse/Fiend. If a DPS class wants to heal it should cost them something, it shouldn't just be free. I know that Ret uses their Holy Power, but outside of CD's you aren't landing a kill anyway, so it's not like you really need that Holy Power for DPS (again, if they removed burst and made it more about pressure this would be different).
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
The problem, believe it or not, is that they got rid of the hybrid tax.

They'd love to give you heals, but they can't have you sacrifice dps for them without making ret unviable in PvE. Thus, they have to balance your heals around the fact that you are ideally as competent a dps as anyone else.

Back in ye olden hybrid tax days, you could actually have been half dps and half heals. Now, you're forced to be a full dps with a few heals thrown in for giggles, none of which are allowed to be very good.


I disagree, let me explain.

Your class for example has ALOT of control, spammable CC if you will. That's part of you niche.
Yet you still do alot of damage dont you?

Ret Does damage and heals because they do NOT have spammable CC or other utility. HoP is quite gimped if you cant throw a few heals on the target. You basically just delay the inevitable. Healing makes other cooldowns worth while as I explained with bubble in my OP.

Again, you are grouping hybrids as if they are all the same. We are not. Retribution is designed around off healing. Talents and abilities reflect that. The numbers just aren't there.

Its basically like if Blizzard nerfed the fear time to 2 seconds. Yes you still have the ability, but its basically worthless and is a big part of your classes utility.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
The problem, believe it or not, is that they got rid of the hybrid tax.

They'd love to give you heals, but they can't have you sacrifice dps for them without making ret unviable in PvE. Thus, they have to balance your heals around the fact that you are ideally as competent a dps as anyone else.

Back in ye olden hybrid tax days, you could actually have been half dps and half heals. Now, you're forced to be a full dps with a few heals thrown in for giggles, none of which are allowed to be very good.


I miss prenerf shadow. It was so op. and before the healing nerf i believe our self healing was balanced. Now i don't even bother outside oif vampiric embrace. Full out dpsing is better.
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
@ rucati, for the sake of space I didn't quote your post.

Here we go again. In your post you group up "dps" ( PVE TERM BTW ) classes as if they are all the same. WE ARE NOT.

again, Retribution Paladins IN PVP, are designed to off heal. our abilities and talents reflect this.
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280


They'd love to give you heals, but they can't have you sacrifice dps for them without making ret unviable in PvE. Thus, they have to balance your heals around the fact that you are ideally as competent a dps as anyone else.
.


Increasing our heals from PVP power would not increase any healing in PVE situations.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Oh, also this thread might do better in the pvp threads. or paladin class forum. The healing forums are more to discuss pure healing specs. You'll probably get more "yer dps, you don't need to heal." responses here, than there.
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
12/15/2012 02:56 PMPosted by Keirisonis
Oh, also this thread might do better in the pvp threads. or paladin class forum. The healing forums are more to discuss pure healing specs. You'll probably get more "yer dps, you don't need to heal." responses here, than there.


I figured, Id just ignore/weed out all the PVE responses with a simple. "This doesnt effect PVE, the is about PVP."

The general forum gets more attention from blues. the pvp forums are ignored.
Edited by Drills on 12/15/2012 2:59 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/15/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Drills
Oh, also this thread might do better in the pvp threads. or paladin class forum. The healing forums are more to discuss pure healing specs. You'll probably get more "yer dps, you don't need to heal." responses here, than there.


I figured, Id just ignore/weed out all the PVE responses with a simple. "This doesnt effect PVE, the is about PVP."

The general forum gets more attention from blues. the pvp forums are ignored.


You probably won't get attention from blues here either. Best to go to the damage dealing forum if that's what you want. We healers have our own issues we need looked at. :P
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280
Yeah, well I didnt post this in the healing forums. Blizzard moved it here. I posted this on the General Forums, I dont understand why they moved it, I guess pvp balance isnt general enough.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9600

Here we go again. In your post you group up "dps" ( PVE TERM BTW ) classes as if they are all the same. WE ARE NOT.

again, Retribution Paladins IN PVP, are designed to off heal. our abilities and talents reflect this.


DPS stands for "Damage Per Second" it isn't a PvE term, it's a video game term. For classes where their main priority is dealing damage. Ret Paladins fall in that category.

So, out of curiosity, if you're a hybrid and your designed to offheal. What are Ele Shamans designed to do? Damage and then running away?

I'm clumping hybrids together because they're all classes whose main objective is DPS, with a side of healing. And when you take those hybrids and make their healing too strong it makes arenas unbalanced, it's really just that simple.

Ret has a higher representation than Enh/Ele Shamans or Boomkins, because Ret brings other useful things to the table. Freedom, BoP, HoJ, etc. Enh/Ele brings some damage, and Tremor Totem. Boomkins bring damage and Cyclone, and a Silence.

That's just how the game is, simple as that. Ret has a lot of utility, yes they die fast but so do most classes currently. There's no real reason to complain that your DPS spec can't heal. It isn't supposed to. You can try and say that you have talents for it, well when I spec Resto I have a talent that makes my Heals do damage to opponents, should I be complaining that my Resto spec doesn't do enough damage? No, of course not.
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71 Blood Elf Rogue
6280

Here we go again. In your post you group up "dps" ( PVE TERM BTW ) classes as if they are all the same. WE ARE NOT.

again, Retribution Paladins IN PVP, are designed to off heal. our abilities and talents reflect this.


DPS stands for "Damage Per Second" it isn't a PvE term, it's a video game term. For classes where their main priority is dealing damage. Ret Paladins fall in that category.

So, out of curiosity, if you're a hybrid and your designed to offheal. What are Ele Shamans designed to do? Damage and then running away?

I'm clumping hybrids together because they're all classes whose main objective is DPS, with a side of healing. And when you take those hybrids and make their healing too strong it makes arenas unbalanced, it's really just that simple.

Ret has a higher representation than Enh/Ele Shamans or Boomkins, because Ret brings other useful things to the table. Freedom, BoP, HoJ, etc. Enh/Ele brings some damage, and Tremor Totem. Boomkins bring damage and Cyclone, and a Silence.

That's just how the game is, simple as that. Ret has a lot of utility, yes they die fast but so do most classes currently. There's no real reason to complain that your DPS spec can't heal. It isn't supposed to. You can try and say that you have talents for it, well when I spec Resto I have a talent that makes my Heals do damage to opponents, should I be complaining that my Resto spec doesn't do enough damage? No, of course not.


I'm sorry If i sound irritated now, but you just DO NOT get it.

"I'm clumping hybrids together because they're all classes whose main objective is DPS"
That isnt how pvp works. Its not tank/healer/dps.

STOP grouping classes together. PVP does not work that way. It never has, never will.

Again for like the 4th time. Ret Paladins. IN PVP. are designed. TO. OFF HEAL. our abilities and talents REFLECT THIS. you have clearly not played a ret paladin. Elemental shamans have thier own issues. and I invite you to create a thread about them if you wish, but stop trying to derail my thread. This thread is about the state and purpose of Retribution Paladins in PVP. Blizzard designed us to be able to off heal and balanced us around that fact.

If you have concerns for other classes, start a new thread.
Edited by Drills on 12/15/2012 3:09 PM PST
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