BrM Guide -Do you really know how to shuffle?

90 Pandaren Monk
15630
haste is a very subjective rating. It has it's mathematical value, but it also has the "rotation" impact.

This is why I explained the benefits of the stat and how it works, because quite frankly, I have no authority to say how much haste you should get.

If you check top monks armories, you'll see that there's only 2 things that are almost religious:
- 7.5% hit
- 15% expertise (there's one for every 10-15 monks you search that are bellow the full cap).

After that what you see is "preference", but not a fixed value:
haste > mastery = crit.

Pretty much every brm have higher haste than the other two.

For BrM, haste is not the same thing as it is for healers for example .. where X haste = +1 tick on hots, being the hard cap.

For us, it increases how much resources we can generate. But how much resource you need is 100% dependant on your playstyle. Some advocate that the more the merrier. I had a very interesting discussion on the game with another player that made a toon in my server to talk some stuff up .. about mastery builds, stat allocation etc.

As I said to him, my personal stand is: Get enough haste to feel confortable on your rotation. If you feel that you can keep shuffle up, while using PB and guard when necessary .. that's it, you don't need more haste past that. For ME, that benchmark is somewhere around 6-7k.

I played with upwards to 8.5k haste, but didn't really see a huge benefit. It's better ? sure, but I felt that after the 7k threshold, the rating could be better spent elsewhere. I simply felt that I had more chi available than I needed, so it ended up resulting in a crapton of remaining shuffle by the end of the fight. A little overkill, imo.

Again, that's 100% my personal opinion.
100 Pandaren Monk
11370
01/17/2013 09:50 AMPosted by Leeflow
15% expertise (there's one for every 10-15 monks you search that are bellow the full cap).

Just cause most people do something doesn't make them right btw =P Personally the 1'ish KS parry per minute isn't worth 2550 rating I'm putting into haste/crit instead. BoK still applies Shuffle no matter what so I'll take my extra seconds of 35% dodge.
After reading this and looking at mmochampion discussions, I'm even MORE torn on how to gear my monk.

On the one hand, this guide sort of discounts the Stam > Agi > Hit/Exp priority list and gives a lot of weight to the 15% expertise gearing.

But people like http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/mugthol/Genshen/advanced go for 7.5% expertise, Agility gemming and prioritising crit over haste.

He doesn't seem like a regular Bob, nor does he seem like a failure, based on his experiences. His WOL shows a pretty nice uptime on needed buffs, and his damage taken is pretty remarkable.

Seeing as both types of gearing seem to work well in the right hands, this is all even more confusing lol.
90 Undead Death Knight
10830
01/17/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Areumdaewo
Seeing as both types of gearing seem to work well in the right hands, this is all even more confusing lol.


At the end of the day, pushing the right button at the right time and communicating properly with your guildmates contributes orders of magnitude more to your individual performance (and by extension your raid's performance) than a few points of one stat or another on your gear.
100 Pandaren Monk
11370
01/17/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Areumdaewo
But people like http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/mugthol/Genshen/advanced go for 7.5% expertise, Agility gemming and prioritising crit over haste.

Because he shares the same sentiment as I do and is based on the fact that most fights you'll see about 4'ish KS parries and BoK still applies shuffle even if it's parried. I've run both sides and settled with 7.5% expertise.

7.5% expertise isn't technically a soft cap though as it shares the same value at 1% as it does at 15%, people just feel that 7.5% reduces your missed Keg Smash # to an acceptable level.

Stacking some stam is acceptable if you feel the EH would help you. In 10m I stacked zero stam but doing H 25m I've picked up about 100k health as my healers were a bit nervous with only like 515k hp (they had never healed a monk before).

The trick is you have to be efficient about it and stack it in areas where you get the most bang for your rating. LW wrist/leg enchants, trinkets, and flask all give a huge amount of stam for the slot they take compared to a measly 240 stam per gem and most enchant's don't really provide that much either.
Isn't the 15% expertise also because of proccing healing orbs more often? Isn't that a good argument for it?

I'm not doing anything super challenging yet (noob here tbh), and I look at my logs and find that in a 6-8 minute fight, I find myself using healing orbs maybe 11 times. So I think I might reforge away from my 13.34% expertise into haste/crit.
100 Pandaren Monk
11370
01/17/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Areumdaewo
Isn't the 15% expertise also because of proccing healing orbs more often? Isn't that a good argument for it?

The increase in GotO is negligible, also remember that more haste results in more orbs, and more crit results in more crit heals from the orbs. So no it's not an argument for the hard cap exactly.

Plus heavy movement fights can result in you having to leave orbs behind that you will probably never get back to before they expire. GotO is neat but it's really just a bonus not a major source of mitigation except on multi-target fights (even at 7.5% I'm swimming in them on Wind Lord).
1 Pandaren Warrior
0
15% expertise (there's one for every 10-15 monks you search that are bellow the full cap).

Just cause most people do something doesn't make them right btw =P Personally the 1'ish KS parry per minute isn't worth 2550 rating I'm putting into haste/crit instead. BoK still applies Shuffle no matter what so I'll take my extra seconds of 35% dodge.


It is when that 1(ish) parry loses you the 2 Chi for that crucial Guard before the mechanic that kills you and wipes the raid.

This is the problem with theorycrafting; it's all patchwerk and does not take encounter mechanics and scenarios into account.

The point of hit, expertise (and haste) is control, not thoroughput. It's the same reason it's smart to put up a Guard/Dampen Harm or other tool periodically during a Thrash on Sha of Fear rather than simply relying on RNG.
Edited by Rijdå on 1/17/2013 1:06 PM PST
100 Pandaren Monk
11370
01/17/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Rijdå
It is when that 1(ish) parry loses you the 2 Chi for that crucial Guard before the mechanic that kills you and wipes the raid.

It's not a 2 chi loss. It's a 1 chi, 1 gcd, and 8 energy loss. This is based on the refunded energy from the parried KS that gets diverted into jab's instead.

On average most people seem to miss ~4 KS per fight, how is losing out on 4 chi, 4 gcd's, and 24 energy worth 2550 extra expertise rating that could go into haste or crit or even mastery?

If your worried about being short Chi for Guard at a specific time just keep 2 banked, most of us run Ascension so you can easily generate 3 more to use without wasting Chi.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1223547-BM-Hit-and-Exp-why-you-don-t-have-to-cap-them
The point of hit, expertise (and haste) is control, not thoroughput. It's the same reason it's smart to put up a Guard/Dampen Harm or other tool periodically during a Thrash on Sha of Fear rather than simply relying on RNG.

You should have EB up for like 90%+ of Thrash procs considering you only need 1 stack to avoid it even. Using Guard/DH/FB to fill in those RNG gaps where you don't get a crit in between.

In my current gear Sha has a 2.25% chance for 2 strikes to land and a 0.33% chance of all 3 strikes landing.
Edited by Rikimu on 1/17/2013 1:33 PM PST
1 Pandaren Warrior
0
It's not a 2 chi loss. It's a 1 chi, 1 gcd, and 8 energy loss. This is based on the refunded energy from the parried KS that gets diverted into jab's instead.

On average most people seem to miss ~4 KS per fight, how is losing out on 4 chi, 4 gcd's, and 24 energy worth 2550 extra expertise rating that could go into haste or crit or even mastery?

If your worried about being short Chi for Guard at a specific time just keep 2 banked, most of us run Ascension so you can easily generate 3 more to use without wasting Chi.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1223547-BM-Hit-and-Exp-why-you-don-t-have-to-cap-them


01/17/2013 01:21 PMPosted by Rikimu
You should have EB up for like 90%+ of Thrash procs considering you only need 1 stack to avoid it even.


The whooshing sound I just heard was deafening.

At this point I just want to dig through my post history for the last person that made this argument and just link it, because A) you're missing the point of control, B) you're making the same logically flawed arguments he made and C) I don't have the patience to do it right now.

I'll just sum it up. As a tank, your job is to eliminate RNG from the equation wherever possible. With this argument, you are flatly stating that placing your fate, and the raid's, in the hands of a certain amount of RNG, no matter how small, is okay.

I don't like "probably". I like "definitely".
Edited by Rijdå on 1/17/2013 7:58 PM PST
95 Pandaren Warrior
16160
Petition to change the title to "Bro do you even Shuf":

1. Demo
100 Human Warlock
20120
Petition to change the title to "Bro do you even Shuf":

1. Demo

2. Sildas
90 Undead Monk
9780
01/17/2013 05:20 AMPosted by Leeflow
I appreciate the effort but you might want to reevaluate some of your post to match more correct modeling.


like ?

I read through it, and I didn't find a single thing (that is relevant) different from what I posted.

stat weight is the same, talent breakdown description is the same .. rotation priorities are the same (explained with other words) ..

sims and spreadsheets have to be taken with an olympic pool of salt.

this kind of information that is the worst possible poison to have in a guide intended to clear up misinformation:

I checked them against Mr. Robot (eh) and they held up. I recalculated, setting Agi = 1.
Stat Adjusted Tank Agility Value
Agility 1
Hit .595
Expertise .586
Haste .583
Crit .579
Parry .458
Armor .423
Dodge .417
Mastery .228
Attack Power .171


it's cute .. but not practical. Simply because it reflects the theoretical best, but not how one should gear (you don't find a single top monk tank gemming up for agility, for example) .. an inexperienced tank, can read this and say "OMG, AGI > ALL .. i'll gem for agi!!".

This is basically what is in the spreadsheet.

But then you have this paragraph:

Agility is far and away our strongest damage reduction stat, point for point. However, since it is budgeted at only 50% of secondary stats for gemming, we can clearly see that Expertise and Hit are our primary gemming goals, followed hotly by Haste and Crit.

Parry and Dodge have low value to Brewmasters, and Stamina has no value to us whatsoever as a damage reduction statistic. While it provides us with greater effective health, we already have a phenomenal toolkit for taking large hits and scale poorly with Stamina, with Dampen Harm's value being detrimentally affected in some situations by acquiring more.


This is the kind of good information.

I'll add more information later on, but as I said initially, I have absolutely no plans on adding the math theory. Because this information is useless to the broad audience, and more importantly: extremelly misleading.

If you log on Mr. Robot with my character, and asks him to "optmize", it will suggest me to gem blues straight for STAMINA and reds for parry + stam.

And this is what is displayed under stat priority: Stam > Agi > Hit/Exp > Haste > Crit > Parry

The same Mr. Robot used to feed the stat weight of the spreadsheet from those threads.

Those 2 threads have a more detailed information (obviously), but they point to the exactly same direction that I do here. The problem is that sim tools and spreadsheet of stat weight do not work for the general public. They simply don't.

Because the regular Bob, will plug his toon on the sim tool, be absolutely clueless on how to process the information presented, will see that agility is the best stat, and go gem for agility ...

and fail royally.

So yes, those are much more complete guides, because the idea here is more about clearing up those tons of misinformation in a more simplified way that works (and it does work very well) .. and not drop a Lord of the Rings size description of the class.


I've been one of the many monks misinformed by mr. Robot, etc. After reading this forum and some of the posts I found relevant in the EJ forums I decided that I would much rather have the 15% expertise. But, my issue was with gearing, how do I know what is the most efficient way to reforge/gem/enchant my gear, how do I know I'm doing it right? After trying to edit the stat weights on Mr. Robot for like 15 minutes I gave up realizing that it will never hard cap my expertise and follow the stat priority. What I ended up doing was using wow reforge and re-gemmed my gear to pretty much as much exp as I could, and then used wow reforge again to clean up the extra expertise I might of had. But I don't feel my gear is to the most efficient stats I can get out of it... This may be confusing, but i hope what I'm asking makes some sense. Thanks for this forum it has helped me a lot and I do appreciate it!
95 Pandaren Warrior
16160
01/18/2013 01:19 AMPosted by Junglejuîce
But, my issue was with gearing, how do I know what is the most efficient way to reforge/gem/enchant my gear, how do I know I'm doing it right? After trying to edit the stat weights on Mr. Robot for like 15 minutes I gave up realizing that it will never hard cap my expertise and follow the stat priority


ReforgeLite

It's like AMR, without the misleading information
100 Dwarf Warrior
19990
Do you understand AMR is a tool? Using it without inputting correct values doesn't make it inaccurate. Without simming your character or at least spreadsheeting it you're obviously using incorrect values.

AMR with correct values is phenomenal.

And to the OP, my position might have been too harsh. For that, my apologies. I still think implementing more math is the right method but I'll have to backtrack my reference to incorrect information. I can admit when I'm wrong and rereading your post proved that I was.
90 Pandaren Monk
15630
But people like http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/mugthol/Genshen/advanced go for 7.5% expertise, Agility gemming and prioritising crit over haste.

He doesn't seem like a regular Bob, nor does he seem like a failure, based on his experiences. His WOL shows a pretty nice uptime on needed buffs, and his damage taken is pretty remarkable.

Seeing as both types of gearing seem to work well in the right hands, this is all even more confusing lol.


this is the main reason why I opted to explain how each stat work instead of saying a cap.

from my 1st post:

Expertise:
"15% exp is safer. Some players manage to make it work with 7.5% exp, BUT 15% is the safest way to play. By having 100% chance of hitting with all your abilities, you guarantee that there will be no suprises in terms of resource management and skill usage. So the conclusion here is: while playing with 7.5% exp is possible, 15% is the safest bet"


you can make it work. He certainly did. Like Descretworia pointed out, player skill is a much more important factor than a couple stats here and there.

But not having full hit/exp cap is less "safe". That is undeniable, and It's just not something most monks will advocate. I'll never suggest, for a new monk struggling to use the class mechanics, to use a setup that can have hidden surprises.

But again, it's simply not the safest route. Not that it's impossible to do with it.

And he's not "gemming for agility". Since he's not using expertise gems on red slots, he naturally have that spare color, and the next best thing is obviously agility.

He have a total of 400 "extra" agility (not considering metagem, because most of us use it anyway) compared to any other monk gemming expertise.

That's 800 AP, ~0.5% crit, ~0.8% dodge. Hardly game breaking in terms of performance.

On average most people seem to miss ~4 KS per fight, how is losing out on 4 chi, 4 gcd's, and 24 energy worth 2550 extra expertise rating that could go into haste or crit or even mastery?


- 2550 extra haste gives you around 0.6energy/sec. That's around +1 chi every 66sec. Or around 7 chi in the regular 8 minute fight.

- 2550 crit gives you around 4% crit which translate into more EB.
EB is an rng defensive cooldown. It's not smart to rely on it to handle situations. It's an extra layer of protection .. not the 1st one.

now let's consider expertise:
- you can KS every 8 sec, so in a perfect scenario you can KS 60 times in a 8 minute fight.
- I'll consider 14 energy/sec regen, which is the most common mark. You generate 6720 energy in a 8 minute fight.
- This means you can use 168 "chi generating abilities" over the 8 minute fight.

60 of them will be KS
108 of them will be jab/expel harm

After consider that 7.5% chance of them will not land. That leaves you with:
55 KS
99 Jabs

Which means you lost 10 chi from KS, and 9 chi from Jab. 19 chi lost total.

But let's look at energy instead. 19 "chi generating abilities" not landing means you lost (19*40)/2 energy (half gets refunded). So you lost 760 energy .. but 380 was refunded. This 380 can be used on ~9 Jabs.

So you can recover 9 chi from the 19 lost.

You gained 7 extra chi with your 2550 extra haste;
And lost 10 chi from missing attacks.

My math can be really off, since it's not my expertise .. but even if somehow the extra haste overweight the loss from missing attacks, you still have to deal with the situation:

You have 0 chi and shuffle is about to drop .. Keg smash misses, you don't generate 2 chi (which will take you 3-6 seconds to generate with 2 jabs), to then be able to Blackout kick to keep shuffle up.

It's not about Blackout kick generating shuffle even if it not lands .. it's about not being able to blackout kick at all (or use another chi based defensive skill) because your resource-generating abilities failed to land.

so .. have fun with that possibility. =D
90 Pandaren Monk
15630
I've been one of the many monks misinformed by mr. Robot, etc. After reading this forum and some of the posts I found relevant in the EJ forums I decided that I would much rather have the 15% expertise. But, my issue was with gearing, how do I know what is the most efficient way to reforge/gem/enchant my gear, how do I know I'm doing it right? After trying to edit the stat weights on Mr. Robot for like 15 minutes I gave up realizing that it will never hard cap my expertise and follow the stat priority. What I ended up doing was using wow reforge and re-gemmed my gear to pretty much as much exp as I could, and then used wow reforge again to clean up the extra expertise I might of had. But I don't feel my gear is to the most efficient stats I can get out of it... This may be confusing, but i hope what I'm asking makes some sense. Thanks for this forum it has helped me a lot and I do appreciate it!


it gets better from now on =p

once you have more gear, you'll have more extra rating, which translates into more haste/crit (and mastery eventually).

The thing is that monks are indeed squishy if you let your defenses drop for more than a second or so. The idea of the hit/exp cap is giving you reliability. Once you can guarantee that your defenses will have no surprises, you'll be able to increase the other areas.

With more haste you'll see that you'll struggle less to keep shuffle up, since your resources will be avaiable more often, more crit will translate into being able to use EB more often etc ..

trust me .. it get's better from now on.

I'm at a point that I can spend a lot of chi on self healing abilities (or purifying waaaay more often) and still yawn at shuffle uptime.

Specially on 5.2 you'll notice that things will get a little easier as well. Since our heals will be chi-free, you wont feel as limited as you do now, and will be able to use them more often without sacrificing other things.

And to the OP, my position might have been too harsh. For that, my apologies. I still think implementing more math is the right method but I'll have to backtrack my reference to incorrect information. I can admit when I'm wrong and rereading your post proved that I was.


It's not that I don't like the math behind. I understand how the mechanics work, do my own napkin math (and talk with several other monks that have much better understanding on theorycraft than I do) and test ingame.

I test a LOT ingame. I always log on PTRs, test different gearing approaches, test them on live raids as well, check if they match what I expected.

So while I understand they are usefull, it can be very confusing to bombard an inexperienced tank with tons of rating weights and expect him to be able to "customize" his own character on a simtool. Experienced tanks don't need this kind of help .. they often know how the mechanics work and can come up with their own solutions.

But to the inexperienced, the heavy theorycraft can be very misleading and overcomplicated. I know what works and what doesn't work and the pros and cons of the different approaches, simply because I tested them from the 5 man pug to the heroic progression raid (our raid progression is ridiculous now because we are recovering from a 5 week "forced break" on december .. but we were much better early on the xpac). So I rather suggest those things and explain what they can expected ingame. Because this information is much easier to diggest.

It's more about "know your audience". Here, often the simplest solution are the best =D
100 Pandaren Monk
11370
01/18/2013 05:25 AMPosted by Leeflow
But let's look at energy instead. 19 "chi generating abilities" not landing means you lost (19*40)/2 energy (half gets refunded). So you lost 760 energy .. but 380 was refunded. This 380 can be used on ~9 Jabs.

I'm pretty sure KS/Jab return 32 energy, making each parry a 8 Energy, 1 Chi, and 1 GCD loss.

So that is a loss of 3.8 jabs.
100 Human Warlock
20120
Do you understand AMR is a tool? Using it without inputting correct values doesn't make it inaccurate. Without simming your character or at least spreadsheeting it you're obviously using incorrect values.

AMR with correct values is phenomenal.


ReforgeLite

It's like AMR, without the misleading information
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19110
I would really like to get this stickied.

/bump

Also, hit the 15 expertise mark on my monk

/hurray
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