BrM Guide -Do you really know how to shuffle?

100 Draenei Paladin
13290
In a situation where you're picking up a hard-hitting boss that melees you for a truckload immediately (before you can put up Shuffle), what exactly can you do? My poor little BrM took a 250k hit from LFR Empress the other day, and it pretty much would've been a one-shot on a real difficulty. I couldn't have enough of a Shuffle duration to last me because of stupid LFR bugs, we were waiting for a good 40 seconds between the adds dying and the boss spawning >.>

Did I just need to pre-emptively pop Dampen Harm?

(edit: Yes, I said "hard-hitting" and "LFR" at the same time, shut up shut up shut up I'm not that good on my Monk, shut up :-P)
Edited by Tailias on 2/13/2013 8:46 AM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
15630
empress still hits surprisingly hard for LFR standarts (I thought they were going to nerf her dmg for lfr actually), so it's no shame there lol

Either you can pull with dampen harm already up or still do the KS>BoK pull.

Rest assured that there's absolutely no boss that will "one shot" in the pull. We are past that era. Sure some of them will hit surprisingly hard, but there's zero chance you'll ever get one shotted in a pull.

But yeh, Dampen harm is an option for those bosses, because you'll want to be using DH while tanking them anyway, and since their melee hits will eat a charge wether you have shuffle up or not, you might as well prevent some extra spike right of the bat.
Edited by Leeflow on 2/13/2013 9:03 AM PST
100 Draenei Paladin
13290
Hmm, okay. Thanks, that makes sense.

Between that, and remembering to use a stam trinket and remembering that Healing Sphere in fact exists and is a good idea when you can't get Chi (or do anything useful with it) on Lei Shi, I'm gonna be the best LFR hero alt ever!
100 Dwarf Warrior
11050
I would like to request that this stop falling off the first page. It needs to stay there, as if it were...what's the term?

Sticky.
90 Pandaren Monk
15630
there's a "request sticky" on the top right of the page =o
100 Dwarf Warrior
11050
Oh, I did that days ago. I was just putting something in the box beyond "sticky requested".

Nice guide, BTW. Makes me want to Monk. :)
90 Dwarf Death Knight
9735
02/17/2013 05:51 AMPosted by Leeflow
there's a "request sticky" on the top right of the page =o

it took my guide over a month to be stickied, and it had plenty of requests from day one. Sometimes it's just slow. On the other hand, when i needed to swap it out for a new version written from my new server it happened within an hour of emailing them, so who knows.
90 Draenei Death Knight
15670
So .. after discussing with a fellow drunken monk, I decided to test the fabled Rune of Re-Origination (the new agility trinket).

It has a very unique effect, and after considering it's potential I went on ptr and runned some tests with it. For those who are not aware, the trinket (currently) function this way:

Imagine you have 6k haste, 5k mastery, 2k crit rating.

When the trinket procs you'll have:
13k haste, 0 mastery, 0 crit for it's duration.

Basically it gets all those 3 ratings and redirect them all to the highest. Keep in mind you cannot cancel the trinket proc (with /cancelaura macros or right-clicking the buff). They did this so you can't cheese it's proc by activating some other ability or cooldown while the trinket is up, and cancelling the effect.

About the tests:

Haste test:

First I did the "haste" test. Basically I used my current setup, which naturally have haste in a much higher value than the other 2 ratings and watch it proc.

My energy with my default haste is 14.5e/sec (give or take a few). With the trinket proc, and all my rating converted to haste, I got 17.3e/sec.

This bring us back to my previous discussion:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7591979125?page=5#97

Specifically the "final result" part. In short it's this conclusion.

Final result:
It's worth mentioning with 6k rating I had all the chi I possibly wanted. With Chi Wave/Zen Sphere out of chi cost, you only have to worry about Bok, Guard and PB. So my personal opinion is that more 6k haste is overkill (like I said multiple times, feel free to tinker your personal number, it's just MY opinion). I played with my dps set that has 7.8k haste just to check, and like I said, I was just using PB a little more often.


this still remains correct.

With the trinket proc, you get to some crazy lvls like 12-15k haste. (depending on your gear lvl). It's past the "overkill" point. It's already the safest bet to gear up with haste as primary stat because of it's reliabilty. So ideally you are ALREADY in the "reliable" spot .. you don't need more than that.

3 extra energy per sec during it's 20 sec proc (the trinket will be changed to 10 sec duration but double the effect, btw) is 60 extra energy during it's uptime ... that's 1 extra PB.

It's hardly a meaningfull survivability increase. Which led me to the next test.

Mastery test:

This is where I got interesting results. My haste on live is usually floating between 6-6.5k, with my crit rating coming in second (around 2.5k) .. and mastery in 3rd with ~1.5k. BUT .. with 5.2 tier gear mixed with my current boots/belt/bracers etc, I tried another approach.

~5.5k haste
~5.8k mastery
crit was just whatever leftover I had. Which is often 1k or so.

This way, mastery was the top dog, and I was still relatively close to my live haste number. Which, considering the changes on the talents (ZS, Chi wave etc without chi cost), and tier 4p (chance to proc free purefying brew) proved to be more than enough.

With 5.8k mastery in the new buffed mastery rating conversion it's around ~11% mastery. When the trinket proc and redirected all my rating to mastery, it went to ~20%. Now that's interesting, and here's why:

20% stagger from ox stance + 20% stagger from shuffle + 20% stagger from mastery. 60% stagger for 20 seconds .. that's a mini shield wall if you ask me.

In the new version of the trinket (200% rating, but 10sec duration) we are talking about ~30% or more mastery for 10 seconds .. pushing our total stagger to ~70% or more for 10 seconds. That is VERY interesting. Coupled with free PB procs, even with zero haste we'll still have ~12e/sec so keeping shuffle up in those 10 sec window wont be a problem .. and we got ourselves a "shield wall-like trinket proc".

I think pushing our mitigation from ~45% stagger we usually have to 70% is a much bigger gain than ~1 extra PB in those 10 seconds.

Crit test:

By a very big accident, I also tested the crit version of the proc. By having a crit proc trinket on, while Rune of Re-Origination also procc'd, crit was my highest stat at that moment .. which redirected all my rating to crit.

But the result is the same as the crit build: It's RNG. Even with 50-60% crit in a short window (10sec) you can get only 1-2 crits .. it might crit all your attacks, it might not have a crit at all ...

the sample is just too short for an rng stat (such as crit) to be buffed. So yeh .. I don't think it's worth at all.
100 Pandaren Monk
20230
Ops posted on the wrong character:

So .. to finish up this discussion my final veredict in terms of gearing changed a bit with this trinket.

Previously I had this in mind:
- 7.5/15% hit/exp
- 6k haste
- crit > mastery

But now, with this trinket, I'll go something like this:
- 7.5/15% hit/exp
- Mastery > haste (while I'll still try to get 5.5-6k haste, I'll always keep mastery ahead for it to be the stat procc'd from the trinket)
- crit whatever leftover I have on the gear.

As usual, this is just my personal napkin theorycraft and not the bible. Anyone is free to share their opinions, tests etc.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19110
I think the proc trinket for tanking is a pretty bad idea. What happens when it procs during a 'not on the boss' phase?

I'd rather have a clicky, or a proc for haste or something.
96 Night Elf Warrior
9385
Is it wrong that the mastery/stagger/mini shield wall trinket proc got me all kinds of excited?
100 Pandaren Monk
20230
I think the proc trinket for tanking is a pretty bad idea. What happens when it procs during a 'not on the boss' phase?

I'd rather have a clicky, or a proc for haste or something.


It depends on the tank really. Monks work a bit differently, and while some "controlled" procs are very good, there are some that are good for it's overall effect.

For example, the 2 trinkets i'm using are pretty much the same thing: raw agi with crit procs. Because for monks, crit is a stat that is pointless to try to "time" it. But whenever they are up, we have more generous elusive brew stacks (not always, since crit is still rng, but obviously, more likely than we would be without). EB stacks is something you can "save" as long as you don't reach the cap.

So in this case, you might have an increased crit chance anytime on the fight, and you use those elusive brew charges later on when required.

This trinket is interesting to use on "constant dmg fights". Fights with a lot of downtime, tank swaps etc, I agree it's not the best in the world because you can have several procs "wasted" during moments you are not tanking.

But for fights with constant dmg, I think it's a very solid choice, because the proc is really powerfull. Even randomly, short moments that you are negating a LOT of physical dmg are good.

Out of the 5.2 trinket list I'd use those:

Agility:
http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/94523-bad-juju
Bad Juju
Item Level 522
+1,467 Mastery (2.45 at L90)
Equip: When your attacks hit you have a chance to gain 7,333 Agility and summon 3 Voodoo Gnomes for 20 sec.
Dropped by Sul the Sandcrawler - Throne of Thunder.

http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/94532-rune-of-re-origination
Rune of Re-Origination
Item Level 522
+1,467 Agility
Equip: When your attacks hit you have a chance to trigger Re-Origination. Re-Origination converts all of your Critical Strike, Haste, and Mastery into the highest of those three attributes for 20 sec.
Dropped by Lei Shen - Throne of Thunder.

and for fights with big dmg things that require "on use" trinkets, I'd get those:

http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/94516-fortitude-of-the-zandalari
Fortitude of the Zandalari
Item Level 522
+1,467 Mastery (2.45 at L90)
Use: Increases maximum health by 73,844 for 15 sec. Shares cooldown with other Battlemaster's trinkets. (2 min cooldown)
Dropped by Sul the Sandcrawler - Throne of Thunder.

http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/94527-ji-kuns-rising-winds
Ji-Kun's Rising Winds
Item Level 522
+1,467 Expertise (4.31 at L90)
Equip: Melee attacks which reduce you below 35% health cause you to instantly heal for 40,341. Cannot occur more than once every 30 sec.
Dropped by Ji-Kun - Throne of Thunder.

As a tank I often have a couple of tank trinkets and change them based on the fights. It's rare that I have only 2 used for everything.
90 Gnome Monk
7950
In terms of guard use and its relationship to avoidance mechanics, do basic parry/dodge mechanics still take place before guard absorption? For example, I have guard up, do I parry/dodge incoming attacks first and then if they get through my defenses then the hit is absorbed? Or is everything absorbed first?
100 Pandaren Monk
20230
absorb mechanics (guard included) only happen when you actually take dmg. If you avoid (dodge/parry) then you don't take dmg. When you are attacked, this is the sequence:

- attack have to actually land to deal any dmg.

- % dmg reduction (Armor, shield walls, whatever you have active that reduces dmg taken) will reduce the amount of dmg you'll take.

- this reduced dmg will then be staggered.

- after this dmg is staggered, the final result will consume part (or all) of your guard.

Basically absorb mechanics are the last line of defense. After the dmg is reduced by your armor, abilities that reduce dmg, staggered, and blablablabalbla the final dmg is what is actually gets reduced by absorb shields.
Edited by Leeflow on 2/21/2013 3:06 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
19110
I just meant that having a trinket that procs something randomly isn't as able to be quantified.

For instance, I use the haste --> str proc trinket pretty much all the time. The proc gives me some parry, but I very rarely count on it actually being helpful.

This trinket is interesting to use on "constant dmg fights". Fights with a lot of downtime, tank swaps etc, I agree it's not the best in the world because you can have several procs "wasted" during moments you are not tanking.

But for fights with constant dmg, I think it's a very solid choice, because the proc is really powerfull. Even randomly, short moments that you are negating a LOT of physical dmg are good.


I agree, and I haven't researched into 5.2 fights more than the general looking at the PTR forums, how many 100% tanking time fights are there?

I think most tank want Ji-Kun's Rising Winds as well. For me, it'll be nice to stop using the blue trinket out of scholo for expertise. :D

I know monks are changing in 5.2, will the loss of crit and mastery during the proc time (it's changing to 10 seconds?)be meaningful? Are they changing monk mastery, isn't that supposed to be your worst stat (now)? Or is it just so MUCH mastery you get from it that it'll be worth it?
90 Human Death Knight
8900
it's not meh .. it's one of our best stats.

the problem is that since gems have pure stats at the half of ratings, it's not really worth to gem for agility. Specially because we still need a lot of expertise in the current gear.

as explained, there's even some builds that use agility in gems.

but in enchants or itens, if you get to choose between, say 150 something, or 150 agility. Agility is better.
Dancing steel is 1650 agi.
Windsong is 1500 crit/mastery/haste, and more than one can be active at once.

Isn't that basically the same thing as a gem? 1 Primary or 2 secondary stat?

[e] Thank you for correcting me.
Edited by Guidance on 2/23/2013 12:29 PM PST
90 Pandaren Monk
10280
02/21/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Guidance
Isn't that basically the same thing as a gem? 1 Primary or 2 secondary stat?


Gems have 160 agility and 320 expertise/haste/hit. So it pays to gem the secondary stats in this case because they go so far to helping you out.

The enchants are equal or the agility actually edges out, so you pick agility. If there were 320 agility gems, I imagine we would be stacking those out the bunghole instead of the others.

If I am not understanding you, I apologize. And if I am incorrect, I am sure someone will fix it for me.
100 Pandaren Monk
20230
1650 agi is:
3300AP
~2% crit
~1,2% dodge

1500 crit is:
~1.7% crit

1500 haste is:
~0.3 energy/sec

1500 mastery is:
~1,2% stagger

1650 agi is better than any combination of 2 of those.

But when talking about gems, the difference is that agi is a red gem, which compete against expertise (which we need loads of it). And from gems and enchants I have ~30% of my expertise. 1 agi may be more important than 2 crit for example ... but it's not more important than 2 expertise.

Because ideally, you wanna free up trinkets from ratings. Because they have the same amount of stats and ratings.

With my gems, I can get 960 expertise or 480 agi.
With my trinkets, I can get 1467 expertise or 1467 agi.

The only reason why i'm listing a mastery and an expertise trinket is because they have REALLY good "on use" effects. Otherwise i'd always go double agi trinkets.

I know monks are changing in 5.2, will the loss of crit and mastery during the proc time (it's changing to 10 seconds?)be meaningful? Are they changing monk mastery, isn't that supposed to be your worst stat (now)? Or is it just so MUCH mastery you get from it that it'll be worth it?


they are changing a little but it's more about the nature of the proc.

On 5.1 our stats work like this:

- haste is better because more chi the better. With have too many things costing chi: BoK, PB, Guard, healing talents. So the more you have, more often you can use those.

- crit is rng so .. it's never been our main stat. It's good to have it, but not reliable enough to be a priority.

- mastery is crap because the rating conversion is extremelly expensive for it's return.

On 5.2

- haste has a "virtual cap". With healing mechanics no longer costing chi, and with a t4p bonus that have a proc chance of a "free PB" .. our need for chi dropped a lot. It's something like this (those are 100% arbitrary haste values, just so you can get the idea):

1) with 4000 haste, you generate enough chi to keep shuffle up 100% of the time;
2) with 5000 haste, you generate enough chi to keep shuffle AND use guard;
3) with 6000 haste, you generate enough chi to keep shuffle, use guard and PB often;
4) with 7000 haste, you generate enough chi to keep shuffle, use guard, PB often and then use healing mechanics often.

But since 4 no longer exists, and 3 is "cheaper" now because of the free PBs. Haste past #3 is a little overkill. Sure you can PB even more often, but the effectiveness of that is debatable.

This means that haste is still a very good stat .. BUT until a point. Not a stat that we can just stockpile forever.

- crit is still the same rng, no changes there.

- mastery rating conversion is a little more generous. Currently, ~1k mastery = +0.8% stagger. On 5.2, 1k mastery = 1% stagger.

It's not nearly enough to make it better than haste. BUT that's where Rune of origination comes into play.

Losing all of our haste for 10 seconds means going from (in my case), 14.55 e/sec to 12.65 e/sec. While that is crippling during the entire fight, (as if gearing straight for mastery and sacrificing all your haste, because then on the long run you'd be sacrificing a lot of PBs, etc etc), you don't even notice in a 10 sec window.

And losing all my crit rating means losing ~4% crit, which is also irrelevant during 10 sec.

But getting twice those ratings as mastery, means that, in the new mastery haste build I would go from:

- +10% stagger (against my current 5%)
- to +20% stagger in the current 20sec version
- to +30% stagger in the 10 sec version that is going to be implemented.

I lose mere 4% crit and an irrelevant amount of energy (20 energy), to get +20% dmg reduction for 10sec ...

for monks that's a very good tradeof.

20% passive from ox
20% from shuffle
20/30% from the trinket and while the trinket is up (10 sec) I have 70% dmg reduction for 10 sec.

Sure you might avoid all the hits during those 10 sec etc etc .. it might proc in a wasted moment etc etc ..

And keep in mind that it's 70% physical reduction we are talking about. Stagger works for everything that deals physical dmg (attenuation, force and verve, shockwaves etc etc).

So yeh, i'm thinking it's a very interesting trinket.
Edited by Leeflow on 2/21/2013 5:03 PM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
8960
02/21/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Leeflow
So yeh, i'm thinking it's a very interesting trinket.


ib4 Eflow NEVER gets the trinket to drop :p
90 Pandaren Monk
9455
Bumping to keep this off the second page as well as say that I don't think Healing Elixirs is as lackluster as it first appears. The ability's cooldown triggers the buff every eighteen seconds, regardless of whether or not you use it. So if you wait twelve seconds, Purify, you'll get the Healing Elixir buff back in six seconds. With a little practice (and the buff in 5.2) you can angle yourself to get a 30% heal for two chi. It's not affected by Guard, however.

In any fight where you can count on Dampen Harm being triggered or heavy enough magic damage to warrant Diffuse Magic, by all means use those talents, but Healing Elixirs is still more than a "set it and forget it" talent and worth keeping an eye on.
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