Purge of Dalaran

90 Orc Warlock
10490
Well, you got me there. All in all I would have rather seen them use the characters we have now that WOULD pull stunts like this rather than completely derail another character into doing so.Genn or Tyrande would have fit perfectly, not in Dalaran but a situation very similar to it.


I think they're setting her up to fall to fel magic and be Kael'thas 2.0 for the Legion's return next xpac.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/07/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Grimauna
I think they're setting her up to fall to fel magic and be Kael'thas 2.0 for the Legion's return next xpac.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vt2F2YKzyA
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
10490
I never said I was happy with that turn of events. I liked her better as One Sane (wo)Man in the face of overwhelmingly stupid and belligerant sides better than retreading "Someone good goes through something traumatic and falls to evil"
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13050
I never said I was happy with that turn of events. I liked her better as One Sane (wo)Man in the face of overwhelmingly stupid and belligerant sides better than retreading "Someone good goes through something traumatic and falls to evil"


It's less "evil" and more "dark". (Yes there's a difference.)

It would be interesting if the Alliance had more anti-heroes and I would have rather it not be Jaina, but I'm okay with it in the grand scheme of things.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
10490
It's less "evil" and more "dark". (Yes there's a difference.)It would be interesting if the Alliance had more anti-heroes and I would have rather it not be Jaina, but I'm okay with it in the grand scheme of things.


If only she could stop at "dark." Blizz was never really good at stopping that sort of thing. They love them some fallen heroes.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Warrior
9545
Considering that she didn't know Lor'themar and Varian were talking about the possibility of the Blood elves leaving the Horde, she cannot be blamed for those talks failing. She reacted to the situation of betrayal in Dalaran. At the time she was not concerned about the Alliance, but about how some Sunreaver members of the Kirin Tor, which the Sunreavers were a part of, betrayed the Kirin Tor again. That is the situation she had to face. Given the severity of the two incidences, she had to act fast. There was no time to do a long investigation. There very well could have been yet another incident that would have seen the loss of another Alliance city, or Dalaran itself could have come under attack when Garrosh decides to add Dalaran to the Horde.
Actually, yeah, she kinda is at fault for the talks failing, because her actions directly led to those talks failing. Varian says as much. Jaina's actions did have consequences.

I'll admit that Jaina had to make a call. But given that the call she made has alienated potential allies, forced them back into the Horde, all the while imprisoning en masse civilians and killing people who resist this arrest based on an assumption that everyone is guilty (not to mention seizing one of the council members with no visible approval or consulting with the rest of the Kirin Tor), I think it might be worth considering that she made the wrong call in the long run.

I personally think that outright kicking the Sunreavers out of Dalaran without at all investigating (arresting and killing to accomplish this eviction) was where she went wrong, as well as siccing the Sunreaver's rivals in the city to do the dirty work rather than the actual Dalaran authorities.

Also consider that Aethas Sunreaver was one of the members who were in favor of her becoming Arch Mage and head of the Kirin Tor. Given that, Jaina's harsh reaction to him asserting his peoples' right to live in Dalaran comes across as ungrateful as well. >_>
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
11050
02/07/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Grimauna
Well, you got me there. All in all I would have rather seen them use the characters we have now that WOULD pull stunts like this rather than completely derail another character into doing so.Genn or Tyrande would have fit perfectly, not in Dalaran but a situation very similar to it.


I think they're setting her up to fall to fel magic and be Kael'thas 2.0 for the Legion's return next xpac.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xj_P53k93k&feature=player_detailpage
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13050
If only she could stop at "dark." Blizz was never really good at stopping that sort of thing. They love them some fallen heroes.


The difference is that she is deeply remorseful for ever feeling genocidal tendencies.

You can't say the same for Sylvanas. She ordered the entire nation of Gilneas be drowned in plague and gone by tomorrow without batting a single eyelash.
Reply Quote
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/07/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Grimauna
I'm sorry we tried to assassinate your leaders, unleashed an army of angry thugs who beat you and stole your property, then wrongfully imprisioned you without trial for crimes you didn't commit.


Hey look! A bunch of things that didn't happen!

The Blood Elves would be right to be confused at that apology for sure.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Warrior
9545
Hey look! A bunch of things that didn't happen!

The Blood Elves would be right to be confused at that apology for sure.
Leaders might not have been assassinated, but the Silver Covenant WERE loosed and did engage in some beating, property WAS seized, people WERE imprisoned en masse without due process, a few even killed, and all the while Jaina did precisely zero investigation into the matter beyond "This is Sunreaver magic! WE'VE FOUND THE CULPRITS!"

Sorry Vyrin, but if you're saying nothing went on in Dalaran during the purge, you're being willfully ignorant.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/07/2013 04:41 PMPosted by Rothiron
people WERE imprisoned en masse without due process


To be fair, it's implied that Jaina hands them all over at the end of 5.2 as a trade-off for some Sunreaver captive that we're unaware of. (Probably Thalen Songweaver.)

Honestly, I don't think any due process is necessary when it's all out war going on, though. That stuff tends to just blow up in the Alliance's faces because of a severe case of lawful stupid.

EDIT: I also might add that it's kinda unfair how people ask the Alliance to always take the Lawful Good approach to things... when that's what's making their story severely suffer right now.
Edited by Grimtale on 2/7/2013 5:10 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
02/07/2013 04:41 PMPosted by Rothiron
Leaders might not have been assassinated, but the Silver Covenant WERE loosed and did engage in some beating, property WAS seized, people WERE imprisoned en masse without due process, a few even killed, and all the while Jaina did precisely zero investigation into the matter beyond "This is Sunreaver magic! WE'VE FOUND THE CULPRITS!"


The SC were engaged in lawful actions in arresting an organization that had been known to hold subversive elements. When you are arresting someone, seizing their property, freezing their bank accounts and imprisoning those you catch is standard procedure. Those who resisted, did so until they had to be killed. THAT is something that can happen when you resist arrest with violence. The harder you resist, the higher the chance you will get killed. There will be an investigation into the Sunreavers and that's best done where they can be held in a secure place. You do not EVER leave a subversive organization intact or it will come to back to bite you in the butt.

As for due process, we, in this world, in the first world nations do not do mass arrests without due process. But Azeroth has no such thing. no nation of any faction or race has anything like due process. It's fully legal to do what Jaina did to a dangerous element.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Warrior
9545
The SC were engaged in lawful actions in arresting an organization that had been known to hold subversive elements. When you are arresting someone, seizing their property, freezing their bank accounts and imprisoning those you catch is standard procedure. Those who resisted, did so until they had to be killed. THAT is something that can happen when you resist arrest with violence. The harder you resist, the higher the chance you will get killed. There will be an investigation into the Sunreavers and that's best done where they can be held in a secure place. You do not EVER leave a subversive organization intact or it will come to back to bite you in the butt.

As for due process, we, in this world, in the first world nations do not do mass arrests without due process. But Azeroth has no such thing. no nation of any faction or race has anything like due process. It's fully legal to do what Jaina did to a dangerous element.
I'm very well aware of the reasoning given to do all that, but at the end of the day, that doesn't mean it all didn't happen like Vyrin claims. On a large scale, no less. And mind you, the order wasn't to arrest the people who fought back, it was to kill them. As far as I can see, it was a 100% chance that people resisting the arrest were dead.

In fact, its questionable why the Silver Covenant were enlisted to enforce this rule and not the Dalaran guards proper. We do see them hassling civilians Horde side as well. And please define to me what you mean by "subversive organization." If you mean the Sunreavers wholly supported the Horde and went behind the Kirin Tor's back to do so, I'm afraid that wouldn't be quite accurate. As it stands, its doubtful Jaina will conduct an investigation at all given her absolute certainty the Sunreavers are guilty, and her words during and after this incident.

"You are no longer welcome in Dalaran." "Your people are prisoners of war." "Once Horde, always Horde." Etc.

And the absence of due process is simply not true, trials and such does exist on Azeroth. Tirion Fordring was tried and found guilty in the book Blood and Honor.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Warrior
9545
To be fair, it's implied that Jaina hands them all over at the end of 5.2 as a trade-off for some Sunreaver captive that we're unaware of. (Probably Thalen Songweaver.)

Honestly, I don't think any due process is necessary when it's all out war going on, though. That stuff tends to just blow up in the Alliance's faces because of a severe case of lawful stupid.

EDIT: I also might add that it's kinda unfair how people ask the Alliance to always take the Lawful Good approach to things... when that's what's making their story severely suffer right now.
That might pan out well then, though I would like to see a source.

As for your second point, that honestly doesn't make imprisoning the Sunreavers en masse without a proper investigation justified, especially when they're largely innocent.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
Actually, yeah, she kinda is at fault for the talks failing, because her actions directly led to those talks failing. Varian says as much. Jaina's actions did have consequences.

I'll admit that Jaina had to make a call. But given that the call she made has alienated potential allies, forced them back into the Horde, all the while imprisoning en masse civilians and killing people who resist this arrest based on an assumption that everyone is guilty (not to mention seizing one of the council members with no visible approval or consulting with the rest of the Kirin Tor), I think it might be worth considering that she made the wrong call in the long run.


She had no way of knowing those talks were going on. She cannot be held responsible for the talks failing. She made a decision to protect the security of Dalaran, which at the time was not a part of the Alliance. I'm not seeing how the actions of a nation not a part of the Alliance is responsible for another nation that's not part of the Alliance for not joining the Alliance.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
20725
02/07/2013 06:01 PMPosted by Kynrind
She had no way of knowing those talks were going on. She cannot be held responsible for the talks failing. She made a decision to protect the security of Dalaran, which at the time was not a part of the Alliance. I'm not seeing how the actions of a nation not a part of the Alliance is responsible for another nation that's not part of the Alliance for not joining the Alliance.


Is Dalaran really more secure now that it turned some of it's staunchest defenders into hated enemies and is now "kill on sight" to half the population of the planet?
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
I'm very well aware of the reasoning given to do all that, but at the end of the day, that doesn't mean it all didn't happen like Vyrin claims. On a large scale, no less. And mind you, the order wasn't to arrest the people who fought back, it was to kill them. As far as I can see, it was a 100% chance that people resisting the arrest were dead.

In fact, its questionable why the Silver Covenant were enlisted to enforce this rule and not the Dalaran guards proper. We do see them hassling civilians Horde side as well. And please define to me what you mean by "subversive organization." If you mean the Sunreavers wholly supported the Horde and went behind the Kirin Tor's back to do so, I'm afraid that wouldn't be quite accurate. As it stands, its doubtful Jaina will conduct an investigation at all given her absolute certainty the Sunreavers are guilty, and her words during and after this incident.

"You are no longer welcome in Dalaran." "Your people are prisoners of war." "Once Horde, always Horde." Etc.

And the absence of due process is simply not true, trials and such does exist on Azeroth. Tirion Fordring was tried and found guilty in the book Blood and Honor.


The order, I believe was to capture them, but it was stated that they wouldn't go quietly and if they did, they were to be put down. That sounds reasonable for the time.

I imagine the Silver Covenant was used over the Dalaran guards because the Dal guards could harbor sympathy for the Sunreavers and let some of them go. I think it's very likely she will have a investigation done. She doesn't have to do it herself. She can have others do it. Delegation of authority.

From what it sounds like in 5.2, she has calmed down somewhat and is much more diplomatic to Lor'themar and his people. The Sunreavers that are in prison, are probably in decent rooms and are being investigated so the bad ones can be weeded out.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/07/2013 06:04 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Is Dalaran really more secure now that it turned some of it's staunchest defenders into hated enemies and is now "kill on sight" to half the population of the planet?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y08mI4CZ028#t=00m15s
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
She had no way of knowing those talks were going on. She cannot be held responsible for the talks failing. She made a decision to protect the security of Dalaran, which at the time was not a part of the Alliance. I'm not seeing how the actions of a nation not a part of the Alliance is responsible for another nation that's not part of the Alliance for not joining the Alliance.


Is Dalaran really more secure now that it turned some of it's staunchest defenders into hated enemies and is now "kill on sight" to half the population of the planet?


Yes it is. They can now depend upon the entire population of the city.

Edit: As Arkturas pointed out, the Sunreavers are hardly the staunchest defenders of the city. They were maybe 1/6 of the population, at best. Both the Sunreavers and Silver Covenant are a small percentage of the city's population.
Edited by Kynrind on 2/7/2013 6:59 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
13790
02/07/2013 06:04 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
some of it's staunchest defenders


You realize how laughable that was considering the betrayals perpetrated by at least some of the Sunreavers?

02/07/2013 06:04 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
kill on sight" to half the population of the planet


Even if the Horde and Alliance were the only members on the planet, the Alliance would be more populous than the Horde.

The Horde is supposed to be individually more dangerous, but smaller in number.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]