Purge of Dalaran

85 Undead Warrior
9435
02/07/2013 06:01 PMPosted by Kynrind
She had no way of knowing those talks were going on. She cannot be held responsible for the talks failing. She made a decision to protect the security of Dalaran, which at the time was not a part of the Alliance. I'm not seeing how the actions of a nation not a part of the Alliance is responsible for another nation that's not part of the Alliance for not joining the Alliance.
Yes, she made a decision to protect Dalaran. That decision drove the talks to fail, directly. Whether she knew of them or not is irrelevant, its still a direct consequence of her actions. That Dalaran was but a neutral nation measly minutes before she enacted her decision and gift wrapped her city for Varian is at best a trivial detail for all concerned.

Furthermore, Dalaran had an Alliance affiliated group that was directly in charge of the Sunreaver's eviction. By the time the Horde players get there, Stormwind soldiers are being called in. Jaina's true loyalties are apparent before all of this.

The order, I believe was to capture them, but it was stated that they wouldn't go quietly and if they did, they were to be put down. That sounds reasonable for the time.
Under normal circumstances, perhaps, but the situation is hardly as simple as "Good guys arrest bad guys, bad guys resist, bad guys get shot." The arrest orders are abrupt, being carried out by a rival faction, and for a charge that they are innocent of, not to mention their leader has been seized and imprisoned. The execution was chaotic, giving no good reason for the Sunreavers to comply peacefully, and guaranteeing casualties and fatalities.

Nevertheless, my point here was that in resisting the arrest, there wasn't just a chance of the guys being killed like you suggested in the previous post, it was outright mandated.

I imagine the Silver Covenant was used over the Dalaran guards because the Dal guards could harbor sympathy for the Sunreavers and let some of them go. I think it's very likely she will have a investigation done. She doesn't have to do it herself. She can have others do it. Delegation of authority.
So essentially, she deliberately used a group that HATED the Sunreavers rather than a neutral party? And I'm going to ask where she even suggests the idea of an investigation, because I see none. Seriously, she is absolutely certain of their guilt, her first command to Aethas is that the Sunreavers are no longer welcome in Dalaran.

From what it sounds like in 5.2, she has calmed down somewhat and is much more diplomatic to Lor'themar and his people. The Sunreavers that are in prison, are probably in decent rooms and are being investigated so the bad ones can be weeded out.
The first half, while arguable, is reasonable. The latter half though is doubtful given what the Violet Hold is... A prison for magical criminals and worse. And again, Jaina gives no indication that she's investigating, in the sound from 5.2, she considers them ALL "legitimate war-prisoners."

You realize how laughable that was considering the betrayals perpetrated by at least some of the Sunreavers?
Emphasis mine. Aethas held more loyalty to the Kirin Tor than Garrosh, and the Sunreavers evicted from their home blame Garrosh. Threeslotbag's point is solid.
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100 Tauren Druid
8540
02/07/2013 06:09 PMPosted by Kynrind
The Sunreavers that are in prison, are probably in decent rooms and are being investigated so the bad ones can be weeded out.


Remember what the Violet Hold looked like when you were leveling in Northrend?

Yeah, I'm sure that's living a life of comfort.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10775
02/07/2013 11:37 PMPosted by Seiryu
The Sunreavers that are in prison, are probably in decent rooms and are being investigated so the bad ones can be weeded out.


Remember what the Violet Hold looked like when you were leveling in Northrend?

Yeah, I'm sure that's living a life of comfort.


at least they left the water elemental in water... even though it could have escaped at any time through the iron bars.
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90 Undead Mage
7375
1. Highly doubtful - almost certain no, unless dalaran is a major feature of next expansion and if this expansion proves to be one where alliance vs. horde war is put to one side in order to fight a larger enemy.

2. I actually think this could work, if there isn't a council including all the current leaders of the other races in the horde. Blizzard states that for a short time after the invasion of Orgrimmar, King Varian Wrynn will rule the city as a peacekeeper whilst another leader is chosen.
I also think that when the alliance leaves orgrimmar, it will want a more friendly leader who has a greater understanding and appreciation for the alliance. I am not saying that Lor'themar has this, but he was in 'negotiation' with Wrynn to rejoin the alliance according to patch 5.1. So...this makes him a very likely candidate. Plus with all of his character building of late, and blizzard finally turning him into a less passive, more decisive figure with a calm head in battle, he makes a wise choice to lead the horde into a new era.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
7 hours ago.

19/7/2012.

Am I the only one seeing this?

Woah it changed, carry on.

*weirded out*
Edited by Gandred on 2/8/2013 7:05 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
5360
Yes, she made a decision to protect Dalaran. That decision drove the talks to fail, directly. Whether she knew of them or not is irrelevant, its still a direct consequence of her actions. That Dalaran was but a neutral nation measly minutes before she enacted her decision and gift wrapped her city for Varian is at best a trivial detail for all concerned.

Furthermore, Dalaran had an Alliance affiliated group that was directly in charge of the Sunreaver's eviction. By the time the Horde players get there, Stormwind soldiers are being called in. Jaina's true loyalties are apparent before all of this.


She always leaned towards the Alliance. It would be stupid to think she preferred the Horde model of government over the Alliance one. She wanted peace with the Horde, not to have to fight against it. If she is at fault, so is Varian for not letting her know the talks were going on. She acted without his knowledge because she was 1, the leader of a neutral nation-state. She is NOT answerable to Varian over that. None of the Council of Six were. 2, if her actions are to blame for screwing it up, so to does Lor'themar get the blame for engaging in having a part of the Sunreavers betraying the Kirin Tor to get a weapon of mass destruction into the Horde's hands while he was in talking about switching from the Horde to the Alliance with Varian.

Under normal circumstances, perhaps, but the situation is hardly as simple as "Good guys arrest bad guys, bad guys resist, bad guys get shot." The arrest orders are abrupt, being carried out by a rival faction, and for a charge that they are innocent of, not to mention their leader has been seized and imprisoned. The execution was chaotic, giving no good reason for the Sunreavers to comply peacefully, and guaranteeing casualties and fatalities.

Nevertheless, my point here was that in resisting the arrest, there wasn't just a chance of the guys being killed like you suggested in the previous post, it was outright mandated.


It was only mandated by game mechanics. there was no option to capture and subdue. It was fight and kill and the orders are to subdue any resisters, but if they fight, that you can kill them if they push it to that. It's obvious the SC isn't going to lose any sleep if Sunreavers die, but I highly doubt they had every Sunreaver they were to capture killed.

02/07/2013 07:10 PMPosted by Rothiron
So essentially, she deliberately used a group that HATED the Sunreavers rather than a neutral party? And I'm going to ask where she even suggests the idea of an investigation, because I see none. Seriously, she is absolutely certain of their guilt, her first command to Aethas is that the Sunreavers are no longer welcome in Dalaran.


The SC would be motivated to hunt down and find every Sunreaver. They would not be likely to be persuaded to look to the side and let some Sunreavers get away. For Jaina to not have an investigation done would be completely out of character for her. She would want to know who had indeed helped and aided the Horde in the Sunreaver's betrayal. However I do not see her letting those who are innocent go until the war is over. It would be the height of stupidity to let them go without reassurances.

The first half, while arguable, is reasonable. The latter half though is doubtful given what the Violet Hold is... A prison for magical criminals and worse. And again, Jaina gives no indication that she's investigating, in the sound from 5.2, she considers them ALL "legitimate war-prisoners."


Remember what the Violet Hold looked like when you were leveling in Northrend?

Yeah, I'm sure that's living a life of comfort.


/rolls eyes
Bedding can be brought in and some other comforts. There are hundreds of Sunreavers held captive. The little we saw of the Violet Hold is not all of it, there's more of it and there would be holding cells for more normal sized humanoid people. Since it's a prison that also holds long lived people for their life, there would be some effort to make the cells somewhat comfortable.

02/07/2013 07:10 PMPosted by Rothiron
Emphasis mine. Aethas held more loyalty to the Kirin Tor than Garrosh, and the Sunreavers evicted from their home blame Garrosh. Threeslotbag's point is solid.


It's debatable.
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85 Undead Warrior
9435
02/08/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Kynrind
She always leaned towards the Alliance. It would be stupid to think she preferred the Horde model of government over the Alliance one. She wanted peace with the Horde, not to have to fight against it. If she is at fault, so is Varian for not letting her know the talks were going on. She acted without his knowledge because she was 1, the leader of a neutral nation-state. She is NOT answerable to Varian over that. None of the Council of Six were. 2, if her actions are to blame for screwing it up, so to does Lor'themar get the blame for engaging in having a part of the Sunreavers betraying the Kirin Tor to get a weapon of mass destruction into the Horde's hands while he was in talking about switching from the Horde to the Alliance with Varian.
1) She had pretty solidly impressed onto Varian that she wasn't going to kick the Blood Elves out of Dalaran when they had last conversed, so he switched tactics. Perhaps Varian is to blame for not letting her know, but does that change anything? In the end, her actions still caused the talks to fail, and Jaina doesn't even care about that anyway.

2) Neither Lor'themar nor Aethas had anything to do with the Bell's theft, save association with people suspected in it. The Sunreavers DIDN'T betray the Kirin Tor, a select few with possibly unspecified accomplices did. Attempting to shrug blame off on them for Jaina's actions is kinda ridiculous, honestly. If there's someone else to blame as much or moreso than Jaina, it would be Garrosh for planting those subversive agents to begin with.

It was only mandated by game mechanics. there was no option to capture and subdue. It was fight and kill and the orders are to subdue any resisters, but if they fight, that you can kill them if they push it to that. It's obvious the SC isn't going to lose any sleep if Sunreavers die, but I highly doubt they had every Sunreaver they were to capture killed.
Game mechanics? I'm fairly certain there are quests where you can simply subdue a guy resisting to a point where you use an item on them to finish the rest. Game mechanics doesn't come into a quest when your orders are to kill people resisting rather than simply subduing them.

I was speaking nothing of the Sunreavers who are all captured, but the ones who are killed for resisting, because there are no efforts to preserve them despite the notion that resistance in such a large scale arrest and purge would be unavoidable.

The SC would be motivated to hunt down and find every Sunreaver. They would not be likely to be persuaded to look to the side and let some Sunreavers get away. For Jaina to not have an investigation done would be completely out of character for her. She would want to know who had indeed helped and aided the Horde in the Sunreaver's betrayal. However I do not see her letting those who are innocent go until the war is over. It would be the height of stupidity to let them go without reassurances.
So yes, she DID use a prejudiced group to ensure her agenda rather than a neutral third party on the off chance that the latter would let a couple slide away.

And the whole episode of the Purge of Dalaran is drastically out of character for her to begin with, given her history in the grand scheme. But recently, with her bad experience with blood elves, and her immediate drastic action taken against them, not conducting an investigation on a matter she is already deathly certain of is nothing major.

/rolls eyes
Bedding can be brought in and some other comforts. There are hundreds of Sunreavers held captive. The little we saw of the Violet Hold is not all of it, there's more of it and there would be holding cells for more normal sized humanoid people. Since it's a prison that also holds long lived people for their life, there would be some effort to make the cells somewhat comfortable.
This is based on assumption. Yes, bedding and comfort can be brought in, but why would it? Yes, there could be other departments different from what we've seen, but we haven't seen them.

Its doubtful that Jaina took the time to really bother with luxuries for people she view as traitors, especially when she has shown not the least bit of doubt in their guilt. It doesn't line up with current characterization.

It's debatable.
Aethas and Rommath were arguing about the loyalties, and it took being denounced a traitor and being arrested for him to really commit his forces to the Sin'Dorei and Horde officially. Mind telling me what is in doubt?
Edited by Rothiron on 2/8/2013 2:41 PM PST
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