no ret changes for 5.2 yet? need some QOL

90 Dwarf Paladin
12730

Because assassination rogues aren't ret paladins?


Yet, we got Combo Points-like resource and a buff similar to theirs Slice 'n Dice. Good logic.


Only one of three Rogue specs have an ability to auto-refresh Slice and Dice - because only one spec of three has such a demand on their resources that they need a bit of help. The way Holy Power flows these days, the fact that we can bank some, we don't need a similar crutch to what Assassination has.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Lobster


Envenom refreshing Slice and Dice? Why can't Rets have a helpful ability like this?

Because assassination rogues aren't ret paladins?


In what part did I say rogues were paladins? I'm talking mechanics here bud, try and keep up.

You can cry for uniqueness all you want but taking similar mechanics from other classes is apparent everywhere in this game.

Being able to use INQ without holy power would be helpful same with removing it from the GCD.

Both great ideas.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
01/11/2013 03:56 PMPosted by Nytró
Being able to use INQ without holy power would be helpful same with removing it from the GCD.


That wasnt your original argument though, it was refreshing inq with abilities.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280


Yet, we got Combo Points-like resource and a buff similar to theirs Slice 'n Dice. Good logic.


Only one of three Rogue specs have an ability to auto-refresh Slice and Dice - because only one spec of three has such a demand on their resources that they need a bit of help. The way Holy Power flows these days, the fact that we can bank some, we don't need a similar crutch to what Assassination has.


Its not a crutch, its a big part of their damage. Keeping up SnD is a must for rogues just like how INQ is for Retribution. The difference is they can keep going indefinitely upon using envenom meanwhile we have to use a GCD to refresh ours.

Maybe something like 3 consecutive TV's could refresh INQ? With the talk about priority changes with our new TV T15 bonus an ability like the one I suggested would be very plausible.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 04:00 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
Being able to use INQ without holy power would be helpful same with removing it from the GCD.


That wasnt your original argument though, it was refreshing inq with abilities.


Read my other posts.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
01/11/2013 04:02 PMPosted by Nytró


That wasnt your original argument though, it was refreshing inq with abilities.


Read my other posts.


Your one other post, where you were comparing it to Assasination rogues? Or the post you made after I posted, am I supposed to be psychic now?

One spec can keep it up, the other two specs have to recast it with combo points
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Your position is flawed, though, in saying that Rogues - without qualifying a particular spec - get to lazily refresh their maintenance buff when not all Rogue specs get to do that. Considering Inq was given to us specifically to complicate our rotation, how would dumbing it down like that further the (re)design of the spec?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280


Read my other posts.


Your one other post, where you were comparing it to Assasination rogues? Or the post you made after I posted, am I supposed to be psychic now?

One spec can keep it up, the other two specs have to recast it with combo points


So whats wrong with an ability to automatically refresh INQ? Rogues and Ferals have such mechanics and it would be very helpful if Ret had something similar.

Whats your point?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435
The thing is rogues are complaining about snd as well with recup requiring combo on top. It's similar to rets, but the point is they are complaining about it.

Said this before, but the bigger problem is pvp where we need to wog a lot.
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90 Human Paladin
15265
01/11/2013 04:09 PMPosted by Nytró
So whats wrong with an ability to automatically refresh INQ? Rogues and Ferals have such mechanics and it would be very helpful if Ret had something similar


So what druid ability refreshes Savage Roar, that isnt Savage roar?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 04:06 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Your position is flawed, though, in saying that Rogues - without qualifying a particular spec - get to lazily refresh their maintenance buff when not all Rogue specs get to do that. Considering Inq was given to us specifically to complicate our rotation, how would dumbing it down like that further the (re)design of the spec?


Our rotation even with INQ is not complicated lol.

How would such a mechanic for Ret dumb anything down?

If I go up and attack someone and my TV refreshes my INQ that gives me more opportunity to support my teammates or do damage without having to worry about keeping a buff up.

How is that bad?
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90 Human Paladin
15265
01/11/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Nytró
Our rotation even with INQ is not complicated lol.


If its not complicated, why the need to make it easier?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
So whats wrong with an ability to automatically refresh INQ? Rogues and Ferals have such mechanics and it would be very helpful if Ret had something similar


So what druid ability refreshes Savage Roar, that isnt Savage roar?


01/11/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
So whats wrong with an ability to automatically refresh INQ? Rogues and Ferals have such mechanics and it would be very helpful if Ret had something similar


So what druid ability refreshes Savage Roar, that isnt Savage roar?


Glyph of Savage Roar allows them to use it with no combo points.

What I'm proposing could be either a set bonus or a glyph

PvP Set Bonus: Using 3 TV's refreshes INQ

Glyph of Inquisition: INQ can be used with 0 holy power and increases its duration.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
Our rotation even with INQ is not complicated lol.


If its not complicated, why the need to make it easier?


Whats the problem with making things easier? Would you rather things be more difficult?

Some great logic there bud.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
So whats wrong with an ability to automatically refresh INQ? Rogues and Ferals have such mechanics and it would be very helpful if Ret had something similar.

Whats your point?


You seem to be willfully ignoring our point. Not all Rogues do what you are suggesting we should do, and you're basing your argument on that falsehood. There really isn't any reason for Ret to have a mechanic like that, as it's simple enough to reapply - especially since we can bank and store HoPo, even if we have to pop it at two just to keep it up.

Now, I understand that your concerns are more from a PvP perspective, and I'm not arguing one way or the other about our state in PvP, as I would clearly have no idea what I'd be talking about. But the change you want would have consequences in PvE that I, personally, do not want to see. I would suggest, instead, that perhaps a change to the PvP gear bonuses would be more in order? Instead of the extra range on Judg, TV use refreshes Inq - or instead of extra Power from the two-piece, TV refreshes Inq?

And since when do Ferals automatically reapply Savage Roar (serious question; never bothered to learn Feral on my Druid, only Guardian)?
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90 Human Paladin
15265
01/11/2013 04:16 PMPosted by Nytró
Glyph of Savage Roar allows them to use it with no combo points.


Its equal to our Inq glyph except the opposite effect, makes it free but its durration is even shorter than with 1 combo point

Opposed to glyph of Inq, which makes it twice as long but half as strong

I'm not up to math on Ferals, but it might be a DPS loss for them to use that glyph as well

If you wanted to make it like the Feral one, it would have no hopo cost, but would have a durration lower than casting it with 1 holy power, so like 5 seconds.

01/11/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Nytró
Whats the problem with making things easier? Would you rather things be more difficult?


If its not hard, why does it need to be made easier. Its already not difficult, its just tedious. Taking it off the GCD would fix that clunk from it
Edited by Paladinchaz on 1/11/2013 4:22 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
So whats wrong with an ability to automatically refresh INQ? Rogues and Ferals have such mechanics and it would be very helpful if Ret had something similar.

Whats your point?


You seem to be willfully ignoring our point. Not all Rogues do what you are suggesting we should do, and you're basing your argument on that falsehood. There really isn't any reason for Ret to have a mechanic like that, as it's simple enough to reapply - especially since we can bank and store HoPo, even if we have to pop it at two just to keep it up.

Now, I understand that your concerns are more from a PvP perspective, and I'm not arguing one way or the other about our state in PvP, as I would clearly have no idea what I'd be talking about. But the change you want would have consequences in PvE that I, personally, do not want to see. I would suggest, instead, that perhaps a change to the PvP gear bonuses would be more in order? Instead of the extra range on Judg, TV use refreshes Inq - or instead of extra Power from the two-piece, TV refreshes Inq?

And since when do Ferals automatically reapply Savage Roar (serious question; never bothered to learn Feral on my Druid, only Guardian)?


They have a glyph that allows them to use it without Combo points.

Let me make another thing clear, I play both aspects of this game so I'm genuinely trying to come up with ways that could make BOTH aspects of playing Ret better.

I understand your perspective and I appreciate it. So maybe just keeping them PvP set could be an idea. I'm also not saying our rotation even with INQ is difficult, I'm just trying to think of ways to keep INQ from being a tedious mechanic as Paladinchaz said.

Believe me I don't want to "faceroll" but I always want to be able to play a class and spec without some aspects of it feeling like a chore, that defeats the purpose of playing a game for fun.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
01/11/2013 04:13 PMPosted by Nytró
Our rotation even with INQ is not complicated lol.


No, it's not. But many people fail at it, anyway, perpetuating the misonception of Ret being a terrible spec. I far prefer the slight complication of Inq to the faceroll of Wrath, because it serves its intended purpose: to help separate good players from bad. Because, all ego aside, that does matter in terms of raid progressions and in terms of structured PvP progression. Who wants a Mage that can sustain 100k on a dummy, but is completely incapable of moving out of fire even when being screamed at over Vent? Who wants a Warrior that can top the damage and KB charts, but he's not killing FCs/capping nodes?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Paladinchaz
Glyph of Savage Roar allows them to use it with no combo points.


Its equal to our Inq glyph except the opposite effect, makes it free but its durration is even shorter than with 1 combo point

Opposed to glyph of Inq, which makes it twice as long but half as strong

I'm not up to math on Ferals, but it might be a DPS loss for them to use that glyph as well

If you wanted to make it like the Feral one, it would have no hopo cost, but would have a durration lower than casting it with 1 holy power, so like 5 seconds.

Whats the problem with making things easier? Would you rather things be more difficult?


If its not hard, why does it need to be made easier. Its already not difficult, its just tedious. Taking it off the GCD would fix that clunk from it


You just proved my point, you feel like its tedious. What Im trying to propose would allow you to DPS without that feeling if such a mechanic could be designed and implemented correctly.

Do you want to play an aspect of a game that makes you feel like its a chore to do? I know I don't really want to which is why I try and look for fun ways to change how its played if I can and its within reason.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18280
01/11/2013 04:29 PMPosted by Grôgnárd
Our rotation even with INQ is not complicated lol.


No, it's not. But many people fail at it, anyway, perpetuating the misonception of Ret being a terrible spec. I far prefer the slight complication of Inq to the faceroll of Wrath, because it serves its intended purpose: to help separate good players from bad. Because, all ego aside, that does matter in terms of raid progressions and in terms of structured PvP progression. Who wants a Mage that can sustain 100k on a dummy, but is completely incapable of moving out of fire even when being screamed at over Vent? Who wants a Warrior that can top the damage and KB charts, but he's not killing FCs/capping nodes?


:\ Thats true. I really do hate that misconception people have about this spec.
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