Huge disc changes in the ptr build

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
First of all, pulling numbers from a log like this rather than just using the basic values doesn't yield good results due to all sorts of hidden factors. We know what the fundamental mechanics are, so there's no reason not to use them.

Second of all,. Garalon is a particularly silly fight to use due to the 100% damage buff.

PoH heals for 8689 + 83.8% per target. Penance deals 1001 + 103.7% each tick.

With 25k spellpower, that would be 29639 (non-crit) per target for PoH and 26296 (non-crit) for Penance. We don't need to worry about crits or haste because they'll be affecting both spells the same.

With 5 targets, our PoH would yield 59,278 hps (non-crit, non-hasted) at 10.97 hpm. 3 ticks of offensive Penance would yield 39,444 hps at 8.48 hpm. So PoH is 50% more hps and 29% more hpm than Penance. Post-5.2, a 20% buff to Penance would merely cut into this lead.


I'm not using the damage buff on Garalon as I'm merely using Penance on CD to build AA for SS, so there's that.

Your math does not account for any second stat values, raid buffs or any overhealing (a MAJOR consideration), which is going to substantially lower the values for PoH. I choose to use logs because it more accurate reflects what happens in-game during encounters.

Like I said though, these are rough numbers and I've pointed out the assumptions and limitations of these figures. Still, it provides a much better starting point to gauge how well our heals will stack up against each other, especially compared to whatever napkin math you've decided to come up with.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/17/2013 1:43 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
10145
Most changes are buffs to discipline priests in challenge modes

/dance
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Most changes are buffs to discipline priests in challenge modes

/dance


Why would you dance? They didn't even give us pretty armor for Challenge Modes. >:|
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
10145
Posted by Tiriél
Why would you dance? They didn't even give us pretty armor for Challenge Modes. >:|

Well that's subjective. I like our challenge set.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Posted by Tiriél
Why would you dance? They didn't even give us pretty armor for Challenge Modes. >:|

Well that's subjective. I like our challenge set.


So ugly. :( I want the Mage one.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
12295
01/17/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Ceddya
Your math does not account for any second stat values, raid buffs or any overhealing (a MAJOR consideration), which is going to substantially lower the values for PoH. I choose to use logs because it more accurate reflects what happens in-game during encounters.


While you could account for secondary stat values, there isn't any reason to do so because they affect each spell equally and can be factored out.

As for overhealing, using logs is a horrible idea for PoH since much of the overhealing for PoH comes from targets you knew you were overhealing when you cast the spell in the first place. So you end up with a '5 target' number that doesn't remotely reflect reality.

If you want to incorporate overhealing, you do so as a factor afterwards. You analyze multiple logs from multiple players to get a figure for overhealing independent of player quirks, and then incorporate that factor.

Your approach yields numbers that have essentially no informational value.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17065
The analogy made me laugh. Remember I raid 10s, so my personal healing style is one that's shared with a lot of other 10 man healers. And I'll show how much of a nerf to sustained aoe healing it is compared to holy sometime, and then maybe compare the burst aoe potential of both.

But they are feeling bullets, I don't mind if everyone hates them.


I've healed 10s during raid lulls, and while it is different it is not gamebreakingly so, and I still don't understand. I two healed almost everything (not because I wanted to, but because we had no other healer available) and wasn't really 'semi dps utility' but 'staple output', perhaps that was is why I'm staring at your points and going 'w....t...f...?'

Back to topic:

I think at this point blizz is trying to random pull punches while trying to avoid a real, heavy, overhaul - which I firmly believe is what a disc needs if it wants to be at a place where (I think) blizz wants it to be: the "I am a healer where my features are mitigation and prevent but I am not abusably OP" spot.

Blizz...just more or less has written itself into a corner with the spells (or lack thereof) it has given us, and is utterly, utterly reluctant to do any serious change to fix the issues because "players dislike change".

What (I think) disc should really have is mid to low, steady, controllable stream of absorption through healing - sort of like the paladin mastery, NONE of the crit-RNG-DA crap, and you can't roll it for OPness. e.g. DA should really be a one-off 'buff'. each individual DA should be linked it its own healing spell with a short duration so it can't be rolled on forever. Remember how they fixed ignite rolling from multple fire mages in Vanilla? That should happen to DA. Multple POHs can't roll one single DA buff for an eternity til absorb. That alone will fix POH-DA rolling priests.

SS in its current incarnation is too damn strong not 'cuz healing', but 'cuz mechanic'. But at the same time it's not reliable enough' to warrant a 3min+ 'raid CD level' timer. However outside of DA, it is THE reason why Disc is 'OP' (and the reason for the many none-disc tears). So maybe lower the absorb cap, or decrease the SS shield buff duration. Or make it a 'stance' which you can turn off/on but with restrictions (e.g. while in SS stance % of your healing is converted into absorbs, can't stack over 20% HP, the shield buff is short so you can't roll definitely).

Sure the above are basically crapshot behind-pulled ideas. @_@ it basically addressed the two key things why disc is pissing people off right now without turning the spec upside down stats wise.
Edited by Zamboozle on 1/17/2013 2:08 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105
01/17/2013 10:37 AMPosted by Tiriél
Bolded/underlined my concerns. I'm not particularly content with the idea that we're only coming in even with others with CDs, much less one that we have to build up to in order to use.


Yeah, CC's should be further throughput, not needed just to keep us up to par. CC's should allow for burst throughput. So my PoH is as good as Holy's 18 seconds out of 60. What do I do the other 42 seconds?


Um, what? CDs are not further throughput - all specs are balanced around their total output including both standard state healing and cooldowns. Some specs have more cooldowns and have stronger cooldowns than other specs, but the overall numbers should be competitive. Saying that CDs don't count in that calculation in any way is ridiculous.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/17/2013 02:12 PMPosted by Tiberria
Um, what? CDs are not further throughput - all specs are balanced around their total output including both standard state healing and cooldowns. Some specs have more cooldowns and have stronger cooldowns than other specs, but the overall numbers should be competitive. Saying that CDs don't count in that calculation in any way is ridiculous.


Okay, Tiberria.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
17105

I'll just repeat this one more time, and maybe this time you'll read for comprehension instead of repeating the same line over and over again with no actual understanding of what you're saying: Absorbs are only superior to actual healing depending on the mechanics of the absorb you used and the mechanics of the ability taking away the health (i.e. the fight mechanics themselves).


Wrong. Absorbs are always superior to healing of the same amount. If someone takes damage and is at 50% HP, an absorb is still better than an effective heal in every situation. Arguing that that person may not take damage (which is the only argument that can even be made against absorbs not being better than heals) is a logical fallacy, because if he does take damage, that absorb is there to cover it. If he doesn't take damage, he didn't need the healing in the first place so it doesn't matter. After all, the only reason being at 50% HP is a problem is that he might die from further damage. A player with with 350,000 HP that is down to 250,000 HP with a 100k absorb on him is just as good as a 350,000k HP player that is topped.

On top of that, absorbs have to be balanced as being worth more per point absorbed/healed than heals because they add effective health to the target and make a significant impact in survivability. And even in situations where you don't want to use absorbs and would rather top the player off, it isn't like you don't have Greater Heal, Flash Heal and Penance available. Sure, the direct healing tools and burst that Disc has may be inferior to what other healing specs have, but they need to be inferior. It wouldn't be balanced for Disc to have direct healing and burst that is on par with every other healer AND have the ability to proactively absorb significant amounts of damage on top of that.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Priest
17830
- If aegis from PoH is crit heals only, then I'm happy to unmacro inner focus from my PoH and I'll be looking to use train of thought more for it.

>Macro'd IF

Do people still do this? I'm sort of surprised. Just out of curiosity, since personally as a Heroic raider I thought this was sort of a no-no, what is your reasoning behind just using IF on cd and not saving it for more oh-!@#$ situations? I find that having the guaranteed crit exactly when I want it is very good for intense fights like H Sha and H.E. Protectors.
Reply Quote
01/17/2013 02:08 PMPosted by Zamboozle
SS in its current incarnation is too damn strong not 'cuz healing', but 'cuz mechanic'. But at the same time it's not reliable enough' to warrant a 3min+ 'raid CD level' timer. However outside of DA, it is THE reason why Disc is 'OP' (and the reason for the many none-disc tears). So maybe lower the absorb cap, or decrease the SS shield buff duration. Or make it a 'stance' which you can turn off/on but with restrictions (e.g. while in SS stance % of your healing is converted into absorbs, can't stack over 20% HP, the shield buff is short so you can't roll definitely).


The reason SS is confusing is because, on the meters, it looks like a raid CD, but unlike a 3-min raid CD it has a prep time, which doesn't show on the meters. That is why people cry over it. While I like your idea, SS is already effectively a stance with a duration and a cooldown. Making it a stance wouldn't really change the gameplay, but might make it more transparent to other healers what's going on.

Just. Please.

Turn. Divine Aegis. Into Illuminated Healing. Don't tie our absorbs solely to crits. Why do paladins have more control over their absorbs than disc priests? Why? Why? Whyyyyyyyy?
Edited by Heartsings on 1/17/2013 2:45 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
14310
01/17/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Heartsings
Turn. Divine Aegis. Into Illuminated Healing. Don't tie our absorbs solely to crits. Why do paladins have more control over their absorbs than disc priests? Why? Why? Whyyyyyyyy?


Simple. They want us to cripple our "staple" spell by forcing Crit on us when it doesn't scale with PW:S at all. I really hate Divine Aegis.

01/17/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Tiberria
Wrong. Absorbs are always superior to healing of the same amount.


Oh really? That must be why Disc does so well in PvP. Your bold, easily refutable claim is laughable. Absorbs are horrible when the incoming damage is random.
Edited by Lothrik on 1/17/2013 2:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
While you could account for secondary stat values, there isn't any reason to do so because they affect each spell equally and can be factored out.

As for overhealing, using logs is a horrible idea for PoH since much of the overhealing for PoH comes from targets you knew you were overhealing when you cast the spell in the first place. So you end up with a '5 target' number that doesn't remotely reflect reality.

If you want to incorporate overhealing, you do so as a factor afterwards. You analyze multiple logs from multiple players to get a figure for overhealing independent of player quirks, and then incorporate that factor.

Your approach yields numbers that have essentially no informational value.


My numbers obviously aren't a perfect representation of what goes on and they aren't meant to be absolute. I have combed through various Disc logs and the variance is ~25% more healing from PoH. Even so, you're looking at PW:S coming out ahead unless your PoH hits at least 4 targets.

Here's a question: even on fights that cater to PoH, does your PoH always hit all 5 targets and never overheal? On paper, the numbers for PoH look great, but you're neglecting the fact that there are very few fights that allow for perfect PoH usage. Fact is, even in the most ideal of situations, there will still be a substantial amount of overhealing from PoH, and this increases the better your healing roster is at timing their various healing CDs and reacting to damage.

My point is simple: you're actually better off casting a PW:S or using Penance+Solace for Atonement healing unless your PoH is able to hit at least 4 targets and not overheal a lot. This is a lot different from Cata when PoH was our de facto raid heal. Obviously, your spell selection will depend on the context and situation, but the changes have made it so that PW:S becomes a viable and sometimes optimal spell for fights with pulsing AoE damage.

As an aside, does anyone know how SS/PoH functions now that the DA portion has been removed? Because if it functions the same as it does for our direct heals, it probably means that Mastery will still be our go-to stat.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/17/2013 2:57 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
14310
01/17/2013 02:55 PMPosted by Ceddya
My point is simple: you're actually better off casting a PW:S or using Penance+Solace for Atonement healing unless your PoH is able to hit at least 4 targets and not overheal a lot. This is a lot different from Cata when PoH was our de facto raid heal. Obviously, your spell selection will depend on the context and situation, but the changes have made it so that PW:S becomes a viable and sometimes optimal spell for fights with pulsing AoE damage.


Agreed. This means we've essentially come full-circle, back to ICC PW:S blanketing. When PW:S is better in almost every situation and PoH doesn't apply absorbs, PW:S becomes the default AoE heal.
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
17065
01/17/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Synariel
- If aegis from PoH is crit heals only, then I'm happy to unmacro inner focus from my PoH and I'll be looking to use train of thought more for it.

>Macro'd IF

Do people still do this? I'm sort of surprised. Just out of curiosity, since personally as a Heroic raider I thought this was sort of a no-no, what is your reasoning behind just using IF on cd and not saving it for more oh-!@#$ situations? I find that having the guaranteed crit exactly when I want it is very good for intense fights like H Sha and H.E. Protectors.


As a heroic raider myself. That is pretty much why I went 'w...t....f' when I read his bulletpoints.

I can tell you I don't hardwire it to anything. I'll like to hear his reasoning behind it as well (prolly in another thread tho).

Turn. Divine Aegis. Into Illuminated Healing. Don't tie our absorbs solely to crits. Why do paladins have more control over their absorbs than disc priests? Why? Why? Whyyyyyyyy?


THIS THIS THIS. It's been a thorn in my side ever since mastery came out.
Reply Quote
01/17/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Twistedmind
- If aegis from PoH is crit heals only, then I'm happy to unmacro inner focus from my PoH and I'll be looking to use train of thought more for it.


I'm curious about this too. I don't have IF macroed with anything currently, since my usage is very sensitive to damage patterns; and it seems particularly ineffective to macro it with POH currently, since about half of my PoH casts are just to refresh the existing DA, and I don't need or want them to crit. You seem to be implying that you don't currently use IF with GH at all.

The upcoming change would lead me to use IF with POH more often, to get absorbs more reliably on more people (aiming for a similar effect as current DA). I'm curious why this change would lead you to use IF more with GH.
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
17240
Sure, it really does belong in another thread, but my Inner Focus macro logic:
I had it unmacro'd at the start of the expac, but I wasn't using it close enough to the 45 second cd. In most of my logs, it was seeing 1 to 1.5 minutes between uses. So it was like losing 375 mp5, which doesn't look like a lot admittedly. I used to have it as shift+4 for prayer of healing so I could smart choose to use it with shift, and in an effort to get more mp5 from it I was pretty much holding down shift by default. I reversed the macro so it defaults to use it, and pressing shift casts a normal PoH. So I hold shift down to avoid casting it during Spirit Shell, but I try to use it close to the 45 sec cd.

For the loss in throughput, I looked at my usage of it before the change in macro to see how it was doing for overhealing. It was almost 80% for the PoH portion, and looking at my own vids it was because I was using it for the guaranteed crit aegis portion, not because it gives a crit heal to PoH. Because I'm rolling aegis anyways, macro'ing means I can see it going off, but I would have used it anyways because rolling bigger aegis was the intention. Different strokes for different folks. I'm okay with being a little weaker with burst recovery healing if it means that extra 375 mp5 and the extra aegis stacking closer to the inner focus cooldown.

Just try it on an aura fight, or really evaluate how you use it on existing logs before bashing the decision. As shown, I do make the conscious decision not to use it, so the whole mechanic isn't fire and forget for me. I'm just trying to maximize its mp5 and bigger divine aegis potential, not its ability to recover lost health. I promise I'm a good heroic raider too.

@Ced I just got off the ptr and Spirit Shell is using a guaranteed 50% aegis in its multiplier: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714?page=7#131
But this build is one build behind the patch notes, so it's subject to change
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/17/2013 3:27 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Human Priest
17240
Oh, I didn't mean use Greater Heal + Inner focus. I meant, use more greater heals so Inner Focus would come off cooldown faster due to train of thought so you could use an Inner Focus + Prayer of Healing. Also, with the lowered cost of a shield (and the new weakened soul glyph), heavy strength of soul play might see some more use (which is also a buff for pvp).

I guess what I was really getting at with those bullet points is that there is a synergy that has existed with some of our spells that gets overlooked because we're all spamming PoH or atonement in raids at the moment.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/17/2013 3:29 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]