Huge disc changes in the ptr build

90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
Wrong. Absorbs are always superior to healing of the same amount.


Yes, that bubble on a person with 10% health as a crush-type ability is barreling toward the raid is just wonderful. *rolls eyes*
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12435
What you do with IF is pretty inconsequential most of the time.

Turn. Divine Aegis. Into Illuminated Healing. Don't tie our absorbs solely to crits. Why do paladins have more control over their absorbs than disc priests? Why? Why? Whyyyyyyyy?


Spirit Shell and PW:S say wut.

01/17/2013 02:48 PMPosted by Lothrik
Simple. They want us to cripple our "staple" spell by forcing Crit on us when it doesn't scale with PW:S at all. I really hate Divine Aegis.


More of a problem with PW:S than DA or crit. If SS scaling with crit is acceptable, why not PW:S?
Edited by Nixx on 1/17/2013 3:31 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
18590
Oh wow a simple question is construed as bashing? Okay. Didn't mean it that way at all, and I don't think my post implies it, but now I see that your sensitive superiority-complex was not just a vibe I got from other posts of yours :)
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100 Blood Elf Priest
17980
Once again Blizz continues with the concept of Buffing To The Top/Nerfing To the Bottom.

I honestly can't even see how disc is a viable healer now. Mana regen just got murdered by rapture nerf, and even further nerfed if we chose to go into solace. DPS output is nerfed due to loss of insta-cast holyfire. AOE healing is basically non existent with the massive nerfs (over 30-40% with my current build) to Divine Aegis, Spirit Shell and Prayer of Healing. Mastery jumped from our best stat to next-to-worthless due to not working on Spirit Shell and being at least halved in effectiveness for Prayer of Healing.

Have no fear though, Flash Heal got a 0.1% buff if you are over level 10!!!!!!!!

Edit: ....and this was all because Prayer of Healing/Spirit Shell were too strong in 25mans. Who cares about 10 mans and pvp right?
Edited by Tweakler on 1/17/2013 3:35 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
8815
You could balance the whole thing and get rid of sniping by making shields only absorb 80% of dmg letting HoTs tick away still or tell guilds that if 1 healer is sniping everything you probably need less healers in your run. Other option reduce PoH healing for disc to 50% of it's current value and up the shield percentage from 50 to 120.

Assuming a simple value of 100 for poh and mastery of 50% the math goes from

(poh) + (poh * bubble amount ) * (1 + mastery) = 100 + (100 *.5) * 1.5 =175
(poh) + (poh * bubble amount) * (1 + mastery) = 50 + (50*1.2) * (1.5) = 140

It's a nerf to bring our currently ridiculous hps into line with other healers. I freely admit how op it is right now. When DA was buffed to 50% I wanted a single target buff not an aoe buff and knew how out of line this would get. It also keeps our shielding mechanic which is the reason no doubt a lot of us play the spec instead of holy. It's fun blizzard, I'll speak for only myself here not others, but poh DA is the core of what disc healing is.

Our fun mastery stat just got blown into near complete uselessness and it makes me sad.
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90 Human Priest
8815

Edit: ....and this was all because Prayer of Healing/Spirit Shell were too strong in 25mans. Who cares about 10 mans and pvp right?


No kidding I run 10s and I use poh when needed and single target a lot still. The changes actually buff up my single target slightly, but nerf me massively on aoe to the point I may as well be a pally before holy radiance was actually useful. So much damage is raid wide aoe, I can't afford to niche myself as a pure atonement or tank healer.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
01/17/2013 03:28 PMPosted by Taymage
Wrong. Absorbs are always superior to healing of the same amount.


Yes, that bubble on a person with 10% health as a crush-type ability is barreling toward the raid is just wonderful. *rolls eyes*


It's just as effective as the person having 10% HP + the total amount of the absorb.
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100 Human Priest
18405
Also, I didn't get into the math behind this, but there are theoretical points where your crit scaling on PoH versus the mastery scaling on PW:S intersect for pure hps. But my initial reaction to "pw:s spam making a comeback" was even at the 25% reduced mana cost, how sustainable is it to bubble spam? Accounting for the higher borrowed time uptime, bubble spam at my current haste level is still 11,916 mana per second compared to PoH's 5860 mana per second, so maximum throughput doesn't equate to sustainable by any means.

But speaking of sustainable aoe, PoH as a spell for disc has the additional benifits of (1+crit%)*((1+discMastery%)*0.5) versus holy's (1+crit%)*(1+holyMastery%). Archangel can boost your multiplier by an additional 25%, but the chakra:sanctuary is already a permanent 25% boost to aoe. With the newer new spirit shell formula, spirit shell is still a throughput cooldown, so that's what I was talking about when comparing average sustained throughput between the two specs. I'm not going to math it out because the ptr is one build behind what it's supposed to be, and spirit shell's formula might change on me again. But for sustainability, holy also has lightspring, and I'm not including the potential of divine hymn vs. barrier either.

01/17/2013 03:32 PMPosted by Synariel
Oh wow a simple question is construed as bashing? Okay. Didn't mean it that way at all, and I don't think my post implies it, but now I see that your sensitive superiority-complex was not just a vibe I got from other posts of yours :)

Woah, that is now how I meant to sound either. At least both of us can agree that neither one of us can express what we mean through forum text.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/17/2013 3:48 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13000
If they don't want Disc priests to be out of line why do they keep designing encounters with a large burst of damage every minute?! Add some damn RNG to a boss fight if you want disc to be hampered. Maybe then they could stop jerking Disc priests around fundamentally changing the way our spec is played multiple times this expansion. I agree we need a huge overhaul and it most likely wont come until 6.0. These constant changes are getting silly.

Guess its time to start gearing my holy pally for 5.2 just in case.
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90 Troll Priest
14310
If they don't want Disc priests to be out of line why do they keep designing encounters with a large burst of damage every minute?! Add some damn RNG to a boss fight if you want disc to be hampered. Maybe then they could stop jerking Disc priests around fundamentally changing the way our spec is played multiple times this expansion. I agree we need a huge overhaul and it most likely wont come until 6.0. These constant changes are getting silly.

Guess its time to start gearing my holy pally for 5.2 just in case.


Agreed. What did Blizzard think would happen when large damage spikes occur every minute and Disc is the only healer with a 1min CD? People just wouldn't use it?
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01/17/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Twistedmind
I guess what I was really getting at with those bullet points is that there is a synergy that has existed with some of our spells that gets overlooked because we're all spamming PoH or atonement in raids at the moment.


That makes a lot of sense to me, and that explains why you prioritize IF->POH currently. I agree that POH crowds out the other cool parts of the spec. I think the DA change is actually pretty cool in that it will let us put POH back in the box where it's actually appropriate (aoe healing).
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01/17/2013 03:30 PMPosted by Nixx
Spirit Shell and PW:S say wut.


Far, far, far more limited than Illuminated Healing.

01/17/2013 03:33 PMPosted by Tweakler
Mana regen just got murdered by rapture nerf, and even further nerfed if we chose to go into solace. DPS output is nerfed due to loss of insta-cast holyfire.


Wrooooooong wrong wrong wrongest. Mana was way out of line before; the Rapture changes are putting it back where it should be. DPS output is not changing noticeably, and even if it was, you do less DPS than a hunter pet. Don't whine about it.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/17/2013 4:17 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12855
Wow - what a thread! It's so hard to really assign buff / nerf to the changes because of the strict relationship between PvE and PvP for Disc Priests. No bubble spam in PvE means you have to heal PvP differently. In a Battleground with 10 or 15 people running around, Bubbles are a go to spell - so PvP has to change so much.

So my point is that when people say an argument is stupid or point out what the community does or doesn't say, just keep in mind that a solely PvE or PvP perspective may not consider the impacts to the other. When considering changes, if it seems silly or bad, consider the impact to the other side.

01/16/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Gardiff
If you sit at 9150 spirit, there will be no difference. Below 9150, it will be a buff.


So 6K Spirit in PvP gear... WOOHOO!
11K Spirit in PvE gear... Oh no!

Is that how I'm supposed to feel about the changes?

I can cast more bubbles and save on some mana - isn't that good in a BG? Isn't that what the devs are trying to do? Help PvP without destroying PvE? I mean, seeing people say that this will kill Disc for PvE does concern me... but explain how it would also kill PvP or I may just write it off as a "well, it's needed for PvP so you're not understanding the complete impacts."

---

Part of a Devs job is to make the game fun, right?

Holy has always been the most fun spec to me, but I gave it up to go Shadow for PvP and Disc for PvE. I respec back to Holy once or twice a week to do some Heroics for some Valor and do something I love - dungeons and holy... neither of which is necessary anymore for me.

If Disc becomes the PvP spec again and Shadow gets left in the dust, then I'll still remain behind in gear constantly catching up and have to figure it all out again when the new season hits. It was majorly time consuming to log in every day to get 1 win (700 Conquest per week) and 22 normal BG wins per week just to try and keep up.

Either way, I'm happy it's getting attention. I just hope people are on the PTR testing things out and continue these kind of discussions. I'll probably hop on there next week to check things out and try to give them Disc BG data. I don't want to run through 300K mana per minute ever again in PvP.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5535
People outrage over changes, but they never even attempt to try it out. Buffs/Nerfs, you can't find a way to maximize yourselves around changes? What happened to skilled players tackling new content?

I've been meaning to switch to disc simply for the absorbs and fail to see what the big deal is. Yes, numbers change around. I've been skimming through all the mathematicians' data and find it fascinating, yet look forward to exactly how much the changes will alter gameplay.

Things change. It's about the skill more than the changes. There's no such thing as OP classes, but OP players. I came expecting some opinions of how to make this work and what anyone might suggest, but read QQs all over the place and backhanded responses of who's the better player and has the bigger epeen.

TL;DR: :/ Stay classy, forums.
Edited by Taicle on 1/17/2013 4:29 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/17/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Tiberria
Half of what I say on forums is trolling or semi-trolling.


Well, yeah...that actually explains quite a bit.
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90 Troll Priest
14310
01/17/2013 03:39 PMPosted by Stormheals
Our fun mastery stat just got blown into near complete uselessness and it makes me sad.


Our mastery is off in some other reality right now in 5.1. I'd go so far as to say it's the cause of all our balance problems, both in PvE and PvP. It's cripplingly underpowered compared to other healers' Mastery in PvP (I'm looking at you, Deep Healing) and bafflingly overpowered in PvE, because essentially every fight this tier has some form of constant ticking AoE damage or predictable spike damage that absorbs can trivialize. It's a design failure on Blizzards part IMO.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
01/17/2013 04:20 PMPosted by Tiberria
I still wonder how Tiberria manages to get into a guild of that caliber...


I still wonder how HC is able to even clear normal modes if their forum behavior is in any way indicative of the competence of their roster.

Half of what I say on forums is trolling or semi-trolling.

/giggle
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90 Troll Priest
14310
People outrage over changes, but they never even attempt to try it out. Buffs/Nerfs, you can't find a way to maximize yourselves around changes? What happened to skilled players tackling new content?

I've been meaning to switch to disc simply for the absorbs and fail to see what the big deal is. Yes, numbers change around. I've been skimming through all the mathematicians' data and find it fascinating, yet look forward to exactly how much the changes will alter gameplay.

Things change. It's about the skill more than the changes. There's no such thing as OP classes, but OP players. I came expecting some opinions of how to make this work and what anyone might suggest, but read QQs all over the place and backhanded responses of who's the better player and has the bigger epeen.

TL;DR: :/ Stay classy, forums.


What exactly do you think there is to "try out"? I've been following Disc changes closely for 3 years now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when Blizzard is going too far in one direction or the other. About two months into MoP after the initial "Wow, Disc is terrible and needs some buffs" phase, Disc was in a pretty good place. Then, Blizzard kept buffing Disc more and more and more. I didn't understand why, and I still don't. Now they're realizing they buffed it too much and are actually pushing Disc back to MoP-launch levels, if not worse. I know Disc is overpowered right now, but who is to blame for that? Blizzard, for not knowing when to stop the buff-train.
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