Huge disc changes in the ptr build

1 Blood Elf Priest
0
01/18/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
Good and well geared Pallys are the only ones that can occasionally out heal me. So they'll be the next healers to stand out from the pack. I wonder if it means they'll be the next ones in the nerf firing line.


I do not recall Holy Paladins ever being weak except perhaps in TBC. Their crying always seemed to be so effective at persuading the devs not to nerf them.

So that will be a no :/
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100 Human Priest
18140
some early numbers to think about, all with my current gear:
PW:S spam will do 94k hps (113k hps with chaining borrowed time), but PoH will still do 93k hps even without a guaranteed divine aegis. However, when comparing the mana costs, PoH is draining 5860 mana per second and PW:S is draining a whopping 9930 mana per second (12k mana per second after accounting for borrowed time).

The current ptr build available to us is one build behind, so pw:s is incorrectly 50% reduced mana instead of the intended 25% reduced mana cost.

Basically, pw:s spam is not back, nor is it viable because it simply costs too much mana. Even with power infusion, or high raptures, or anything you can think of, you will still be using prayer of healing for aoe. But also, prayer of mending (even without the 2 piece) and offensive penance are now doing more hps than prayer of healing for less mana per second drained, so those are the new spells you'll prioritize as disc for aoe.
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100 Human Priest
11335
@Twistedmind: Maybe I'm misreading, but are you including Penance as a raid heal? Is there no CD on it in PTR?
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90 Human Priest
11345
Penance without a cooldown would be so overpowered it would make current disc look mild in comparison.
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100 Human Priest
11335
My thoughts to
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90 Human Priest
5860
01/18/2013 07:23 PMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
@Twistedmind: Maybe I'm misreading, but are you including Penance as a raid heal? Is there no CD on it in PTR?

...

Twisted also mentioned PoM. He means that discipline will need to use Penance and PoM with PoH for AoE heals.
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100 Human Priest
18140
01/18/2013 07:47 PMPosted by Amabella
Penance without a cooldown would be so overpowered it would make current disc look mild in comparison.

So true.

But the combination of buffing penance and nerfing PoH has shifted the hps and hpm of these spells in such a way that offensive penance is doing well as an aoe heal. Penance still has a cooldown, just like Prayer of Mending and our level 90 spells.

My post was more to put a stop to the doomsday qq'ers saying that bubble spam pw:s is back. It may not be their fault for jumping to that conclusion because the ptr currently does support pw:s spam, but this is getting changed. I would encourage most priests looking for answers to simply download the ptr for themselves instead of reading into the forums because (to quote GC) the "signal to noise ratio is heavily skewed towards noise at the moment". This is to be expected because nobody likes to see their class nerfed.

It's not my intention to sound like I have a superiority complex with this post, I'm simply trying to state facts in a language that is understood on internet forums.
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100 Undead Priest
16980
These are some really terribly thought out changes.

SS was changed to not benefit mastery, but was supposed to gain the wrapped benefit of PoH + it's DA... Now it gains no mastery benefit and PoH no longer has DA adding to it's overall size.

With PoH hitting for 30k per person non-crit and PW:S being unafforadble to spam, Disc will no longer have a way to AoE healer or help preshield the raid in any way (for 25mans, A Disc in 10man Will still be able to). Either way, changes of these magnatudes need to come with mechanics changes elsewhere to compensate as well as additional spells since PoH is useless outside of SS.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
01/18/2013 09:08 PMPosted by Poena
PoH is useless outside of SS

??

Holy priests would like a word with you.
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100 Human Priest
11335
Twistedmind... I don't think you are sounding superior at all and I appreciate the input from someone who's playing the PTR. You've certainly eased my initial despair a great deal.

Maybe mine was a kneejerk reaction. From what you're saying it would appear that as opposed to mitigation specialists, we'll be heading back down the more conventional healing path... but with PW:S, SS and the occasional DA proc thrown in.

We'll adapt, it's not like having to completely change our spec and healing style is unfamiliar territory for us.

Thank you for providing hope.
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100 Undead Priest
16980
PoH is useless outside of SS

??

Holy priests would like a word with you.


You mean the spec that has +25 AoE healing and whose mastery adds to every heal? Disc's mastery once added to all of our PoH, but now will only do so if I crit... which puts us right back to where we were before it was changed in 4.0.3... Remember how many Disc Priests healed back then? None, they all were holy.

The class that also gets CoH, Sanctuary, Divine Hymn AND Lightwell? You get 4 raid heals on top of PoH, we get zero.

I'm sorry, but holy has 4 other raid heals vs. Disc's 1. A change to 1 heal can never be as devastating when you are as diversified as Holy. Right now 60-80% of Disc's output is tied to one spell and all these changes do is reduce that spell. No other options. No other heals... just stuck with a horribly weak spell and nothing else to heal with.
Edited by Poena on 1/18/2013 9:52 PM PST
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Agreed with Bigbuffdaddy.

It looks like POH is going back in its box as filler AOE, and that can only be a good change. Is anyone really going to miss rolling DA? Not me, for sure. I'll miss the power but not the playstyle.

I'm sorry, but holy has 4 other raid heals vs. Disc's 1. A change to 1 heal can never be as devastating when you are as diversified as Holy. Right now 60-80% of Disc's output is tied to one spell and all these changes do is reduce that spell. No other options. No other heals... just stuck with a horribly weak spell and nothing else to heal with.


Wrongzoids!!!! The nerf to POH is being balanced by buffs to PoM and Penance.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/18/2013 9:54 PM PST
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100 Human Priest
18140
Yw, as much hope as I'm bringing, I will admit that disc has gone from superior aoe, to less aoe than holy in chakra sanctuary. The debate of whether or not holy outside of chakra sanctuary, lightspring, and divine hymn make it better or worse than disc with archangel, spirit shell, and power word barrier is debatable.

But theoretical max aoe is one of those things that I don't have many problems with in most of the encounters that we're trying to push when undergeared. The coordination of of healing on targets or reacting to fight mechanics is usually more demanding, so lower aoe hps doesn't realistically mean inferior spec.
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100 Undead Priest
16980
Agreed with Bigbuffdaddy.

It looks like POH is going back in its box as filler AOE, and that can only be a good change. Is anyone really going to miss rolling DA? Not me, for sure. I'll miss the power but not the playstyle.


I'm going to miss it if I'm not given something else.
Please remember your history. Before 4.0.3, Disc did not have a PoH that automatically gave DA and it was really a useless healer. What happened? We got a buff to PoH and we started prestacking DA via it. Then what happened? We got a buff to the output of PW:S and what happened? We we PW:S spammers again for two weeks only to be returned to PoH spam after it's mana cost got nerfed. Seriously they've reverted all the changes that made us a decent spec in Cata AND removed some things on top of that (no Holy Nova and no Divine Hymn)...
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100 Undead Priest
16980
Wrongzoids!!!! The nerf to POH is being balanced by buffs to PoM and Penance.


The nerf to our only AoE heal is being balanced with buffs to two single target heals on cooldowns. You are a complete idiot.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
01/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Poena
CoH

Sucks. Irrelevant.

01/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Poena
Sanctuary,

Sucks. Irrelevant.

01/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Poena
Lightwell?

Lightspring is 15 single-target smart heals every 3 minutes - fills a similar niche to Atonement Penance. It's not really a burst heal.

Lightwell can be used for burst, with the cooperation of the raid...once every 3 minutes. It's harder to use well than SS and has 3 times the CD.

01/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Poena
Divine Hymn

3-minute CD. If you want to exclude Spirit Shell and Barrier, you don't get to include DH in the discussion.

The claim was that PoH is "useless" outside of SS. What in the world do you think Holy priests use when DH is on CD? Hint: It's not CoH.

Mastery and Chakra are really the only arguments you've got, and Mastery is really the only halfway convincing one (you have AA which gives the same bonus as Chakra, and while it's not up all the time, it's entirely possible to have it up for burst when SS is down. Holy doesn't have necessarily have the Chakra: Sanctuary bonus at all times either.)

So basically, your argument is Mastery. Look at the overhealing on Echo of Light sometime. It's not nearly the ~20% bonus it appears to be. Holy burst AoE, outside of DH, is at best only 10% better than Disc burst AoE - and that's balanced by Disc's ability to preshield part of the burst away.
Edited by Kaels on 1/18/2013 10:11 PM PST
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100 Undead Priest
16980
But theoretical max aoe is one of those things that I don't have many problems with in most of the encounters that we're trying to push when undergeared. The coordination of of healing on targets or reacting to fight mechanics is usually more demanding, so lower aoe hps doesn't realistically mean inferior spec.


Your healing team must be bad if coordinating who to heal is the hard part for your progression.

Progression and undergeared raiding is about keeping people at full HP as much as possible so they aren't gibbed by damage. Excluding 1 shot mechanics, giving people as much time to take a little bit more damage is what makes a good healer a good healer during progression. What makes Disc so incredibly powerful is that they give people additional EH when learning mechanics... something that helps makes learning encounters vastly easier.

In 5.2 we can't heal up damage nor prevent it in any meaningful way. The 5.2 vision for Disc Priests is a DPS support healer, one who does useless output in a single role (heals or DPS), but is capable of making the difference during bursts of damage and then back to being useless for another minute. Honestly if you thought PoH/PW:S spam was boring, wait until 5.2 hits and you Penance/Holy Fire/Smite for minutes at a time waiting for burst damage to SS preshield.
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100 Undead Priest
16980
Posted by Poena
CoH

Sucks. Irrelevant.


...

Here is a log from the number 8 holy priest on the Healing fight of the first tier (Heroic Tsulong 25H)
Look what their top AoE heal is!
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-lpi0mm800uf5efij/details/6/?s=13186&e=13593

Here's a top holy Priest for a very AoE heavy fight (Heroic Empress 25H):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6k98kzclny2jqn09/details/12/?s=218&e=961

This Irreverent spell is doing huge amounts of AoE healing... INSANITY!!!

I'd respond to your other points, but it's all covered in the last log I posted. EVERY single one of those spells I listed was used and used for notable portions of the Holy Priests heals. So my point stands, Disc has no other AoE heals, and Holy does.
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100 Undead Priest
16980
01/18/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Kaels
Disc's ability to preshield part of the burst away.


WE CAN'T PRESHIELD ANY MORE IN 5.2 without Spirit Shell.
Repeat that to yourself over and over. Disc can no longer Preshield without Spirit Shell.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
01/18/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Poena
Disc's ability to preshield part of the burst away.


WE CAN'T PRESHIELD ANY MORE IN 5.2 without Spirit Shell.
Repeat that to yourself over and over. Disc can no longer Preshield without Spirit Shell.

Have you heard of a spell called Power Word: Shield? Its mana cost is being reduced in 5.2 to the point that it will be quite sustainable to preshield the entire raid with it several times each fight, or part of the raid many times in a fight.

Here is a log from the number 8 holy priest on the Healing fight of the first tier (Heroic Tsulong 25H)
Look what their top AoE heal is!
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-lpi0mm800uf5efij/details/6/?s=13186&e=13593

...you had to go all the way down to the #8 priest on a single-target fight where Holy is one of the weakest specs to find that.

Here's a top holy Priest for a very AoE heavy fight (Heroic Empress 25H):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6k98kzclny2jqn09/details/12/?s=218&e=961

That's a bit better...but you're still picking a fight where the top holy priest is only the fourth-highest healer in his own raid. 25H Holy, especially right now, is forced into using CoH if they want to do anything at all some of the time because Disc is shielding so much of the PoHable damage. Holy's using CoH like you might use Atonement, to pick off some healing on semi-random scattered targets - they're not using it for heavy AoE demand. It's weaker than PoH.
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