Huge disc changes in the ptr build

1 Blood Elf Priest
0
01/18/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Poena
Disc's ability to preshield part of the burst away.


WE CAN'T PRESHIELD ANY MORE IN 5.2 without Spirit Shell.
Repeat that to yourself over and over. Disc can no longer Preshield without Spirit Shell.


Calm down dear!

The nerfs are warranted, although I wouldn't have liked them so deep, unless a new AOE tool was in it place.

Holy has more tools for handling AOE; however, you are really underestimating the power of shielding and absorption.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/18/2013 10:57 PMPosted by Jesinta
however, you are really underestimating the power of shielding and absorption.


This. It's intentional that Disc can't preshield outside of SS anymore, the mechanic itself is too powerful (and honestly lacks skill entirely). You can still spot absorb with PW:S, but you're going to need to use more than a tiny fraction of your toolkit in a fight now.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/18/2013 11:04 PMPosted by Qùess
however, you are really underestimating the power of shielding and absorption.


This. It's intentional that Disc can't preshield outside of SS anymore, the mechanic itself is too powerful (and honestly lacks skill entirely). You can still spot absorb with PW:S, but you're going to need to use more than a tiny fraction of your toolkit in a fight now.


I have to admit, I sort of see red when I see the explanation, "you're going ot need to use more than a tiny fraction of your toolkit in a fight now."

I'm a 10 man raider. I already use my entire toolkit to do my job. All this change does for me is break part of my toolkit.

I was never rolling DA in the first place, and I don't know any 10 man Priests who had the luxury of doing so without having a magical Mana Tide in the raid.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
01/18/2013 11:04 PMPosted by Qùess
however, you are really underestimating the power of shielding and absorption.


This. It's intentional that Disc can't preshield outside of SS anymore, the mechanic itself is too powerful (and honestly lacks skill entirely). You can still spot absorb with PW:S, but you're going to need to use more than a tiny fraction of your toolkit in a fight now.

^

I'm not defending the precise numbers - we can't test them yet because they haven't updated the PTR (have they?). It's entirely possible that additional tweaks are needed.

I'm also relatively convinced that Barrier needs some rethinking if it's going to be Disc's major CD; the tiny range and static positioning are not very friendly to the kinds of fights we've been seeing. And there's the issue of it overlapping in purpose with Spirit Shell. A redesign might be in order.

But going to a system where PoH is a heal and you have to cast something else if you want to shield - that is a Very Good Thing. PoH should never, ever, ever have been balanced so that it's worthwhile to cast whether or not it actually heals anything. The current incarnation is a monstrosity.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/18/2013 11:14 PMPosted by Kaels
I'm also relatively convinced that Barrier needs some rethinking if it's going to be Disc's major CD; the tiny range and static positioning are not very friendly to the kinds of fights we've been seeing. And there's the issue of it overlapping in purpose with Spirit Shell. A redesign might be in order.


I don't think this will fly. Remember, it's still easier to use and position than SLT. It absorbs more than SLT. And Shaman haven't gotten it redesigned, despite the fact that it's a pain to position and get everyone to stack for.

Also, see Healing Rain...
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
I don't think this will fly. Remember, it's still easier to use and position than SLT. It absorbs more than SLT. And Shaman haven't gotten it redesigned, despite the fact that it's a pain to position and get everyone to stack for.

Also, see Healing Rain...

Yes, but shamans also have HTT.

Re: Healing Rain, yes, Disc has and will continue to have an easier time than shamans dealing with 'normal' spread AoE, but it's really lacking a tool to deal with spread OMGWTF AoE. A disc priest and a paladin 2-healing are going to run into some situations where they really just don't have an effective response - they can't recover in situations where another comp would be able to.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
01/18/2013 10:06 PMPosted by Kaels
CoH

Sucks. Irrelevant.

Well, no. It's instant, so mobile healing.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I don't think this will fly. Remember, it's still easier to use and position than SLT. It absorbs more than SLT. And Shaman haven't gotten it redesigned, despite the fact that it's a pain to position and get everyone to stack for.

Also, see Healing Rain...

Yes, but shamans also have HTT.


And we have Spirit Shell. Which we don't have to talent for, and they do.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975


Sucks. Irrelevant.

Well, no. It's instant, so mobile healing.


I also did some potentially wrong math on it and glyphed CoH is better HPCT than PoH assuming perfect conditions, although it's less than half as much HPM.

So yeah it has a very specific niche and that's about it.

Also, after thinking about it some, I'm okay with PoH being pure healing. I still wish we had a smart AoE, though, or at least maybe a small buff to Disc's PoH to counter the nearly 75% throughput loss we're about to take (like, 10-20%, not enough to keep up with Sanc + EoL).
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/18/2013 11:54 PM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
11895


Well, no. It's instant, so mobile healing.


I also did some potentially wrong math on it and glyphed CoH is better HPCT than PoH assuming perfect conditions, although it's less than half as much HPM.

So yeah it has a very specific niche and that's about it.

Napkin math also puts it as better HPS (I think, though I am not certain; it procs Echo of Light, right?) and HPM than PW:S.

EDIT: Personally? I'd say I'm apprehensive about the PoH change. Might be because I've only been Disc since the start of Cata, so PoH has pretty much always been there for me.
Edited by Skootalloo on 1/18/2013 11:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/18/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Skootalloo
Napkin math also puts it as better HPS (I think, though I am not certain; it procs Echo of Light, right?) and HPM than PW:S.


It does proc Echo of Light.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
WE CAN'T PRESHIELD ANY MORE IN 5.2 without Spirit Shell.
Repeat that to yourself over and over. Disc can no longer Preshield without Spirit Shell.


What exactly is your point? Clearly the developers don't believe we should be able to mass pre-shield outside of using SS.

The problem is we have too much riding on our mitigation. Everything revolves around maximizing absorbs. As a result our absorbs have been steadily buffed over and over making them way too powerful. Getting us away from this and finding a better balance between mitigation and healing is the right play.

The concern is despite being incredibly strong at mitigating damage Discipline is terrible at healing it up. If they're going to strip down the absorbs this heavily they need to apply significant buffs to the spec everywhere else. I don't see a 20% penance buff getting it done. We need more compensation in the AoE healing department.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
EDIT: Personally? I'd say I'm apprehensive about the PoH change. Might be because I've only been Disc since the start of Cata, so PoH has pretty much always been there for me.

Remember DS heroics, when other healers started to catch up to our 'infinite mana' capability? Remember how their increased use of previously burst-only spells started to overtake what we could do with the constant PoH spam we'd been using since the end of t11?

Remember how we, with our now-even-more-infinite mana, started mixing in a lot of mini-PWS-blankets before heavy AoEs?

5.2 Disc should play a lot like that, but with the addition of Spirit Shell. You'll either SS or PWS to get a 'head start', then use PoH (which, like in DS, will be somewhat weaker than other healers' abilities) to help heal up after the damage. The overall effect should be roughly balanced. It can be - it has been in the past. (Disc PoH with DA removed is roughly in the same place, compared to other healers' AoE, as it was in DS with DA included.)
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Edit: Never mind. Kaels said it better than me.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/19/2013 12:19 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
01/18/2013 11:52 PMPosted by Dysrhythmia
I also did some potentially wrong math on it and glyphed CoH is better HPCT than PoH assuming perfect conditions, although it's less than half as much HPM.

Ah, yes, the Glyph of OOM.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
01/19/2013 12:17 AMPosted by Kaels
Remember DS heroics, when other healers started to catch up to our 'infinite mana' capability? Remember how their increased use of previously burst-only spells started to overtake what we could do with the constant PoH spam we'd been using since the end of t11?

Hate to say it, but no I don't. I pretty much stopped raiding in April 2012 to focus more on classwork. And because the guild I was with was...let's just call it less than stellar, I didn't raid again until Mists. I once had to tell my Holy Paladin co-healer to spam Holy Radiance with the blue buff on H Ultraxion, instead of Divine Light, then caught him doing it again next attempt.

Remember how we, with our now-even-more-infinite mana, started mixing in a lot of mini-PWS-blankets before heavy AoEs?

I do do this from time to time, yes. Annihilations on Elegon are a relatively common spot for it.

5.2 Disc should play a lot like that, but with the addition of Spirit Shell. You'll either SS or PWS to get a 'head start', then use PoH (which, like in DS, will be somewhat weaker than other healers' abilities) to help heal up after the damage. The overall effect should be roughly balanced. It can be - it has been in the past. (Disc PoH with DA removed is roughly in the same place, compared to other healers' AoE, as it was in DS with DA included.)

I think my issue is it feels...clumsy. Or weird. Trying to come up with a better way to phrase it.

PW:S feels, to me, a bit like gambling with my mana and spell usage. There are sure things (tanks, constant raid-wide damage, etc.), but that's not always the case and it makes me a bit uncomfortable when I'm in less predictable situations.
Edited by Skootalloo on 1/19/2013 12:33 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/18/2013 11:27 PMPosted by Kaels
Yes, but shamans also have HTT.


And Ascendance.
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90 Human Priest
10165
This isn't just all about Disc either, given that so many of the raid bosses are 2 healer fights our fellow healers will need to respec their toons and change their gameplay in the wake of such massive changes to us... Assuming we're still viable in raids.

My fellow healer is a shammy who elected to go for a crit heavy spec. My shields meant that she could forge out of mastery to a point because Deep Healing seldom applied... this helped her out because she was struggling for mana regen. Even if I change to Holy, she'll still need to change her spec/style to go more Mastery heavy to bring her Deep Healing back up since so much of my mitigation will no longer exist. In addition she may also have to play with her haste so she can get off more lightning bolts for regen.

If all the fights were 3 healer fights it probably wouldn't affect the other healers that much but with only 2 healers... big changes for both.

In this instance, a perfectly working synergy gets broken and all need to change to compensate in some way.
Edited by Bigbuffdaddy on 1/19/2013 12:41 AM PST
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90 Troll Priest
14310
Removing guaranteed Divine Aegis from PoH is fine. Hell, even removing it from SS I can tolerate, even if it doesn't make a lick of sense (I mean come on, what do you think Spirit Shell is? Not a damage absorption spell?)

But (and this is a big but)..

Disc Mastery needs to change. You can't have a Mastery that only works on one spell and is otherwise completely dependent on Crits. Especially not when that one spell is by design not spammable (Weakened Soul + extremely Mana-intensive outside of Rapture).

Imagine a world where patch notes look like this for your class:
"Deep Healing now only triggers on Crits."
"Illuminated Healing now only triggers on Crits."
"Echo of Light now only triggers on Crits."
"Harmony now only affects Crits."
(Suspend disbelief for a moment here and pretend Mastery is currently your best stat by a decent margin, if not already applicable.)

Or you know, just leave it as it is. If it doesn't change I know I'll be avoiding Mastery on gear like the plague.
Edited by Lothrik on 1/19/2013 1:07 AM PST
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100 Human Priest
17240
^I'm on board with that. But seriously, the ability to simply go holy and have the mastery secondary see a much bigger effect overall across our heals is a concern from a gearing point of view.

What I mean is:
Disc: crit%*(1+mastery%)*0.5
Holy: (1+crit%)*(1+mastery%)

That's the additional healing possible from secondary stats, one is a hot, one is a shield. If disc mastery scales at 2.5 and holy scales at 1.25:
disc: crit%*(1+2.5*x)*0.5
holy: (1+crit%)*(1+1.25*x)

^graph those two at differing levels of crit and mastery to see that holy has more additional healing per cast, and that isn't accounting for the chakra/archangel modifiers which could potentially boost holy even more.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/19/2013 1:22 AM PST
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