Huge disc changes in the ptr build

90 Night Elf Druid
10470
01/19/2013 12:37 AMPosted by Bigbuffdaddy
My fellow healer is a shammy who elected to go for a crit heavy spec. My shields meant that she could forge out of mastery to a point because Deep Healing seldom applied... this helped her out because she was struggling for mana regen.


I think the fact that your classes healing power negated the benefit of another healers mastery should be a fairly strong hint that you're too powerful (especially when the mastery is something as basic as increasing healing done on low HP players)
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90 Human Priest
10165
I can see what you're saying but the point I'm trying to make is the shields gave her the flexibilty to change her stats to ones that helped her heal, because she was starved for mana.

As we know, Mastery is one of several secondary stats, all of which have benefits and drawbacks and finding a balance that helps your raid group progress is the most important thing. We're fortunate to have a group that's been the same peeps for near 2 years so we can get that granular when we're looking at stats, and tweak them to everyones advantage, but I guess that puts us in a minority.

In any case, it was just an example. It doesn't change the fact that anyone currently 2 healing with a Disc priest is going to have to change their own playstyle and possibly stats as a result.
Edited by Bigbuffdaddy on 1/19/2013 4:56 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
01/19/2013 12:18 AMPosted by Kaels
I also did some potentially wrong math on it and glyphed CoH is better HPCT than PoH assuming perfect conditions, although it's less than half as much HPM.

Ah, yes, the Glyph of OOM.


Way to completely ignore my admittance that it's a niche spell. Yeah, it blows, but it has a use and you shouldn't ignore it out of spite.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12030
Yes, its niche is in an alternate universe where Holy has mana to burn.

I don't ignore the spell. I practically cast it on CD. I've been playing the spec for 2.3 expansions now, it's burned into my muscle memory. And besides, it's a fun, easy spell, and I can !@#$ off all I want since there's a disc priest in my raid and I'm the 0.5 healer on 2.5-heal fights so my purpose in life mostly consists of Lightspring and Divine Hymn.

But all that doesn't change the fact that I'm Doing It Wrong (TM). If I were a real holy priest, I'd avoid it as much as possible. Probably glyph it, since the un-glyphed version serves no real purpose, and then use it as sort of a tiny throughput CD in high-demand phases.
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90 Undead Priest
15830
01/19/2013 12:03 AMPosted by Volios
What exactly is your point? Clearly the developers don't believe we should be able to mass pre-shield outside of using SS.


My point is exactly what you are saying below. We have nothing else if we don't have absorbs. I'm OK only having occasional aborbs, but we need another AoE heal (one that's a raid heal) and we need output that isn't tied to absorbs. It might also be nice to get rid of grace. Hell we could even have... any interaction between any of our spells?! Disc Has no synergy because it's almost always been a 1 button class. If we are going to be forced to diversify then we need a reason other than we have no other spells to cast.

The problem is we have too much riding on our mitigation. Everything revolves around maximizing absorbs. As a result our absorbs have been steadily buffed over and over making them way too powerful. Getting us away from this and finding a better balance between mitigation and healing is the right play.

The concern is despite being incredibly strong at mitigating damage Discipline is terrible at healing it up. If they're going to strip down the absorbs this heavily they need to apply significant buffs to the spec everywhere else. I don't see a 20% penance buff getting it done. We need more compensation in the AoE healing department.
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1 Blood Elf Priest
0
^I'm on board with that. But seriously, the ability to simply go holy and have the mastery secondary see a much bigger effect overall across our heals is a concern from a gearing point of view.

What I mean is:
Disc: crit%*(1+mastery%)*0.5
Holy: (1+crit%)*(1+mastery%)

That's the additional healing possible from secondary stats, one is a hot, one is a shield. If disc mastery scales at 2.5 and holy scales at 1.25:
disc: crit%*(1+2.5*x)*0.5
holy: (1+crit%)*(1+1.25*x)

^graph those two at differing levels of crit and mastery to see that holy has more additional healing per cast, and that isn't accounting for the chakra/archangel modifiers which could potentially boost holy even more.


The main problem with looking at just the pure output from these is that EOL overheals tremendously compared to DA which, at 15 seconds, is rarely never wasted. Take those graphs and add 30-60% OH on the EOL and 5-20% on the DA - how does it look now?
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90 Undead Priest
15830
01/18/2013 10:57 PMPosted by Jesinta


WE CAN'T PRESHIELD ANY MORE IN 5.2 without Spirit Shell.
Repeat that to yourself over and over. Disc can no longer Preshield without Spirit Shell.


Calm down dear!

The nerfs are warranted, although I wouldn't have liked them so deep, unless a new AOE tool was in it place.

Holy has more tools for handling AOE; however, you are really underestimating the power of shielding and absorption.


Disc needs a nerf. I said it the day I saw where we were going (when PoH got both output and increase to DA). I knew that buffing one spell to the extreme it was would just lead to it being nerfed later, but I literally had no idea that the nerfs would be so extreme as to make us a non-option for anything but gimmick progression.

I am not underestimating anything. I know Disc's power. With Spirit Shell on a 1min CD, unless all fights in the future are designed around 1min bursts of AoE that put the group in danger of death, then Disc can no longer be invited because every other healer has the ability to actually AoE heal. Absorbs only matter in progression to provide EH. If EH isn't needed to survive, then actual healing will always be preferred.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975

But all that doesn't change the fact that I'm Doing It Wrong (TM). If I were a real holy priest, I'd avoid it as much as possible. Probably glyph it, since the un-glyphed version serves no real purpose, and then use it as sort of a tiny throughput CD in high-demand phases.


Well, yeah, this is pretty much how I use it. Once I stopped using it on CD, I suddenly stopped having mana issues; it's just a quick "okay a lot of people immediately need health or they might be in danger of dying" thing for me.
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90 Draenei Priest
11815
I'm a 10 man raider. I already use my entire toolkit to do my job. All this change does for me is break part of my toolkit.

I was never rolling DA in the first place, and I don't know any 10 man Priests who had the luxury of doing so without having a magical Mana Tide in the raid.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who was completely confused about this. I also raid in 10 man and use everything I got and enjoy it. I'm certainly not a one-button wonder. Maybe the changes will make little difference to me since I wasn't PoH spamming but for crying out loud disc is a shielder, but we're going to lose the DA shields? Argh.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/18/2013 11:08 PMPosted by Tiriél
I was never rolling DA in the first place, and I don't know any 10 man Priests who had the luxury of doing so without having a magical Mana Tide in the raid.


I don't have a MTT on 2 heal fights and I don't even have 9k Spirit, I constantly find myself 100% overhealing with PoH for DA. It's even easier to do for Priests with 10k-13k spirit, you could probably chain cast PoH for 10-15 minutes.

I use all my tools as much as possible (okay I forget about PoM sometimes), but what do you even do on a fight like SG/Feng outside of Spirit Shell? Roll DA.
Edited by Qùess on 1/19/2013 9:21 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
15125


Disc Mastery needs to change. You can't have a Mastery that only works on one spell and is otherwise completely dependent on Crits. Especially not when that one spell is by design not spammable (Weakened Soul + extremely Mana-intensive outside of Rapture).
This. Very much this. As I said earlier, I'm all for Disc getting needed changes/nerfs (reserving judgment on the exact nerfs until some testing). But my concern is we now have a mastery that -- even if amazing for PW:S -- still only reliably effects one spell in our entire toolkit. Well, two if you count IF + (spell X). Can anyone identify another single spec in the game whose mastery interacts with so little of the spec's toolkit? I'm unable to think of a single other example.

I really think Disc mastery needs a rework if these changes go live. I don't care so much about the actual numbers involved, I just want mastery to matter for the majority of my healing toolkit, rather than a single spell.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
But all that doesn't change the fact that I'm Doing It Wrong (TM). If I were a real holy priest, I'd avoid it as much as possible. Probably glyph it, since the un-glyphed version serves no real purpose, and then use it as sort of a tiny throughput CD in high-demand phases


Wouldn't the fact that CoH has much less overhealing push its HPM past PoH's? I'm probably doing it wrongly too, but I'm basically casting it on CD.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
01/19/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Ceddya
But all that doesn't change the fact that I'm Doing It Wrong (TM). If I were a real holy priest, I'd avoid it as much as possible. Probably glyph it, since the un-glyphed version serves no real purpose, and then use it as sort of a tiny throughput CD in high-demand phases


Wouldn't the fact that CoH has much less overhealing push its HPM past PoH's? I'm probably doing it wrongly too, but I'm basically casting it on CD.


I guess it really depends on how badly your PoH is getting sniped. CoH's HPM is absolutely atrocious; I calculated glyphed CoH with 25k SP to be something like 7 HPM compared to PoH's 16ish, ignoring EoL and Sanc since they both scale the same from those abilities. This was using Wowhead/WoWDB tooltips though so it might be a bit off.

I guess I could do some more calcs using ingame numbers but the basic idea is that if you can get a full PoH then there's absolutely no reason to use CoH unless you're moving or can/need to heal a 6th target.
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/19/2013 10:22 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/19/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Dysrhythmia
I guess it really depends on how badly your PoH is getting sniped. CoH's HPM is absolutely atrocious; I calculated glyphed CoH with 25k SP to be something like 7 HPM compared to PoH's 16ish, ignoring EoL and Sanc since they both scale the same from those abilities. This was using Wowhead/WoWDB tooltips though so it might be a bit off.


That's weird, because I'm getting 12.9 HPM for unglyphed CoH and 13.9 HPM for PoH at my current gear level.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/19/2013 10:22 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I was never rolling DA in the first place, and I don't know any 10 man Priests who had the luxury of doing so without having a magical Mana Tide in the raid.


I don't have a MTT on 2 heal fights and I don't even have 9k Spirit, I constantly find myself 100% overhealing with PoH for DA. It's even easier to do for Priests with 10k-13k spirit, you could probably chain cast PoH for 10-15 minutes.

I use all my tools as much as possible (okay I forget about PoM sometimes), but what do you even do on a fight like SG/Feng outside of Spirit Shell? Roll DA.


Um, no. You a) Atonement on Feng outside of Spirit Shell, since Feng is spotty damage, and rolling DA would be stupid and wasteful and everything he does is on a near-1 minute timer, so there is no point to rolling DA anyway (and THERE ARE OTHER HEALERS WITH OTHER CDs THAT CAN BE USED), and b) focus on your tanks for SG.

Maybe in your group, you never have to tank heal, but in my group that is close to all I do for H SG, with occasional casts of Spirit Shell when the tanks are stable enough for me to get away with it.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/19/2013 10:24 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
Counting EoL and Sanc this time (although with only 22k SP since I'm doing this unbuffed except for IF) *using my stats so 22% EoL

CoH: 23049 healing x 6 targets = 138294
138294 healing / 12960 mana = 10.671 HPM

Unglyphed CoH: 23049 healing x 5 targets = 115245
115245 healing / 9600 mana = 12.005 HPM

PoH: 41364 healing x 5 targets = 206821
206821 healing / 13500 mana = 15.320 HPM
4 targets: 12.256 HPM
3 targets: 9.192 HPM

I guess wowhead's tooltips are pretty hilariously off since I was getting 16 HPM for PoH even before Sanc/EoL.
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/19/2013 10:37 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Um, no. You a) Atonement on Feng outside of Spirit Shell, since Feng is spotty damage, and rolling DA would be stupid and wasteful and everything he does is on a near-1 minute timer, so there is no point to rolling DA anyway (and THERE ARE OTHER HEALERS WITH OTHER CDs THAT CAN BE USED), and b) focus on your tanks for SG.


There's tank damage in any 10m fight? That's news to me. Between a Brewmaster and a Blood DK, our tanks require almost no attention outside of the very basics (Druid rolls LB and occasional rejuv on tank, I'll PW:S them as needed+occasional HF/Penance atonement).

Rolling DA isn't wasteful on Feng. There isn't any spot damage if you DA it, lol. Obviously we have co-healers, but that's kinda my point. Disc as is barely even needs their co-healers outside of CDs. This change is so Disc won't have the option to completely devalue their other raiders outside of SS.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
@Dysrhythmia, shouldn't the calculations be done with IW instead of IF? With how tight our mana is and with the number of instants we cast, I can't see the benefit to using IF over IW.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/19/2013 10:40 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
01/19/2013 10:39 AMPosted by Ceddya
@Dysrhythmia, shouldn't the calculations be done with IW instead of IF? With how tight our mana is and with the number of instants we cast, I can't see the benefit to using IF over IW.


I haven't needed to use IW at all in normal content (I could see it being needed for maybe Empress) but I guess it would be more accurate to do that for heroic. e: I also haven't killed anything as Holy, I think, although I made it to enrage on both Wind Lord and Garalon with little to no mana problems

Give me a few and I'll get that done

CoH: 129775 healing / 11016 mana = 11.781 HPM
Unglyphed: 108145 healing / 8160 mana = 13.253 HPM
PoH: 194070 healing / 13500 mana = 14.376 HPM

CoH seems to scale about half as well from SP as PoH, which is bad because it takes more than half as much effective time to cast as PoH.
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/19/2013 10:52 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12030
^I'm on board with that. But seriously, the ability to simply go holy and have the mastery secondary see a much bigger effect overall across our heals is a concern from a gearing point of view.

What I mean is:
Disc: crit%*(1+mastery%)*0.5
Holy: (1+crit%)*(1+mastery%)

That's the additional healing possible from secondary stats, one is a hot, one is a shield. If disc mastery scales at 2.5 and holy scales at 1.25:
disc: crit%*(1+2.5*x)*0.5
holy: (1+crit%)*(1+1.25*x)

^graph those two at differing levels of crit and mastery to see that holy has more additional healing per cast, and that isn't accounting for the chakra/archangel modifiers which could potentially boost holy even more.


The main problem with looking at just the pure output from these is that EOL overheals tremendously compared to DA which, at 15 seconds, is rarely never wasted. Take those graphs and add 30-60% OH on the EOL and 5-20% on the DA - how does it look now?

The post you quoted is wrong on the formulas (not sure who it was or why they're so far off, but it doesn't matter), so you won't really get anything useful out of them.

Correct formulas:

Holy's additional possible healing from secondary stats is:
crit% + mastery% + 2 * crit% * (0.1 + mastery%)

Disc's is:
crit% + crit% * (1.2 + mastery%) * DAscaling% * 2

So if you wanted to graph them, you'd graph:
c = crit%
m = normalized mastery% (i.e. mastery% from gear/buffs divided by the class-specific scaling factor)
d = DA scaling factor

(If DA is staying at 50%, you can just ignore the 2d factor for Disc. Not sure what they're doing with it.)

Holy:
c + 1.25m + 2c(0.1 + 1.25m)
Disc:
c + 2dc(1.2 + 2.5m)

If you wanted to compensate for overhealing:
e = effective healing% for crit direct heals
f = effective healing% for Holy mastery
g = effective healing% for DA

Holy:
ec + f(1.25m + 2c(0.1 + 1.25m))
Disc:
ec + g(2dc(1.2 + 2.5m))

Here's a quick-and-dirty set of graphs assuming 50% DA and ignoring overhealing. I tried to pick semi-reasonable bounds for the graphs (up to 20% crit, and up to 15% normalized gear/buff mastery which would equate to 57.5% total mastery for Disc and 28.75% for Holy).

http://www.pdfhost.net/index.php?Action=Download&File=cd9019aade08ecef7b70d7bc3f61734b

The third graph is the most interesting one - it's the comparison of the gains for the two specs. It's actually, surprisingly, very very equal - the graph is basically centered on 0, meaning that on average, Holy and Disc gain about the same amount of raw healing from secondary stats. (I checked this by integration, not just by eyeball.)

Holy does better at low crit/high mastery, while Disc does better at low mastery/high crit, and when crit and mastery are about even, the gains for the two specs are about equal as well.
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