Huge disc changes in the ptr build

90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Qùess
There's tank damage in any 10m fight? That's news to me. Between a Brewmaster and a Blood DK, our tanks require almost no attention outside of the very basics (Druid rolls LB and occasional rejuv on tank, I'll PW:S them as needed+occasional HF/Penance atonement).


Stone Guard Heroic in particular has intense tank damage. I'm waiting for someone to say "it's not our fault you have a "bad" comp," but we don't have a DK or a Brewmaster. Our tanks are a Paladin and a Guardian Druid, and yes, the tank damage is intense on that fight. I literally do not have the luxury of spamming PoH the entire time - I did try it! Not only were people out of range "painting" the tiles for a significant part of the fight, but my tank would die because he took more damage than PoH would heal him up for, and there's only so far a bubble goes.

Rolling DA isn't wasteful on Feng. There isn't any spot damage if you DA it, lol. Obviously we have co-healers, but that's kinda my point. Disc as is barely even needs their co-healers outside of CDs. This change is so Disc won't have the option to completely devalue their other raiders outside of SS.


It's absolutely wasteful. Instead of contributing to getting Feng to the next phase, you're busy rolling DA on people when 75%+ of it is going to be pure overheal the entire time. Once you hit Cap on those people who never actually get hit with the random damage, you're just wasting the DA and healing over and over again.

I stand corrected, though. I guess players like you are the reason players like me are getting the shaft. Thanks!
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
I'll say that a pally/warrior comp is an absolute !@#$% to heal on N Will and I'm not entirely looking forward to H SG.

I also agree that rolling DA for Feng is pretty wasteful unless you're solo-healing or trying to snipe your other healers.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
It's absolutely wasteful. Instead of contributing to getting Feng to the next phase, you're busy rolling DA on people when 75%+ of it is going to be pure overheal the entire time. Once you hit Cap on those people who never actually get hit with the random damage, you're just wasting the DA and healing over and over again.


Except you missed the part where I said I still do use Holy Fire, Penance and PW:S. When SS is over and has been consumed, I build up 5x Eva, use AA then build up Aegis, HF/Penance again and Aegis a little bit more. I never have reached the cap on DA this way, that's not the intent. It's to buffer as much of the damage as possible outside of SS.

Feng is on farm. Obviously I was more inclined to use Atonement based healing outside of SS on progression to get that extra DPS in, but that's no longer necessary. He phases right when we want him to, there's no reason for me to change the pace.

I stand corrected, though. I guess players like you are the reason players like me are getting the shaft. Thanks!


Way to say something petty and not constructive in any way.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
It's absolutely wasteful. Instead of contributing to getting Feng to the next phase, you're busy rolling DA on people when 75%+ of it is going to be pure overheal the entire time. Once you hit Cap on those people who never actually get hit with the random damage, you're just wasting the DA and healing over and over again.

I stand corrected, though. I guess players like you are the reason players like me are getting the shaft. Thanks!


You can roll DAs while contributing DPS with Atonement as evidenced by every single top Disc parse on H Feng 10.

Also, using PoH off the tank to roll DAs (a guaranteed 30k shield on the tank every 2 seconds, what's not to like?) whilst weaving in Atonement heals on H-SG 10 is actually more efficient than simply using your single target heals. You put out much more raid healing whilst having much less overhealing on the tank.

What Quess has suggested on those fights are ways to maximize your HPS without sacriificing your assignment. That is the strength of DA stacking right now and players like him highlight a glaring and OP issue in our toolkit.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/19/2013 11:32 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Thank you Ceddya. You articulated that much better than I could.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
CoH: 129775 healing / 11016 mana = 11.781 HPM
Unglyphed: 108145 healing / 8160 mana = 13.253 HPM
PoH: 194070 healing / 13500 mana = 14.376 HPM


Thanks for the numbers! It's true that CoH is going to fall behind PoH with increasing SP, but the difference in scaling between these two spells is rather small and the difference in HPM values will remain rather close.

Still, the advantage of CoH being an instant cast smart heal is one that's hard to quantify, and as long as your PoH has a chance of getting sniped or is unable to hit all 5 in a party, is seems like it'd be much better to just weave CoH in between your PoH casts.

Conversely, if there's a lot of damage going out with miinimal chance of overhealing, it would be much better to just spam PoH, if only for the DI procs.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/19/2013 11:41 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
01/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Qùess
There's tank damage in any 10m fight?


Will, Lei Shi, p2 H Empress.... Yeah, there is tank damage in a few places. It's not in many though.

01/19/2013 10:38 AMPosted by Qùess
Rolling DA isn't wasteful on Feng. There isn't any spot damage if you DA it, lol. Obviously we have co-healers, but that's kinda my point. Disc as is barely even needs their co-healers outside of CDs. This change is so Disc won't have the option to completely devalue their other raiders outside of SS.


My problem isn't necessarily that these are bad changes. My problem is it's all coming at the same time. The implications of losing guaranteed DA on PoH are huge. Perhaps we were a bit strong and able to do things we were never intended to do because of it. But I don't think outright stripping DA is a good first course of action.

IMO they need to gradually overhaul Discipline. Tone down some of the areas where it is too strong but provide minor buffs to the spec in areas where it is incredibly weak. Spend a few content patches doing this until Disc is in line with the other healers. The approach of applying huge nerfs to a spec when it's over represented and huge buffs when it's under represented is out of control.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/19/2013 11:48 AMPosted by Volios
There's tank damage in any 10m fight?


Will, Lei Shi, p2 H Empress.... Yeah, there is tank damage in a few places. It's not in many though.


And Stone Guard, and Gara'jal, and Blade Lord, and Wind Lord, and Amber Shaper, and parts of Sha of Fear, and Protectors and Tsulong...

My problem isn't necessarily that these are bad changes. My problem is it's all coming at the same time. The implications of losing guaranteed DA on PoH are huge. Perhaps we were a bit strong and able to do things we were never intended to do because of it. But I don't think outright stripping DA is a good first course of action.

IMO they need to gradually overhaul Discipline. Tone down some of the areas where it is too strong but provide minor buffs to the spec in areas where it is incredibly weak. Spend a few content patches doing this until Disc is in line with the other healers. The approach of applying huge nerfs to a spec when it's over represented and huge buffs when it's under represented is out of control.


I don't even care if it's a massive overhaul. But they need to do something. Band-aid fixes do not fix anything. They just prolong the pain later.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
CoH: 129775 healing / 11016 mana = 11.781 HPM
Unglyphed: 108145 healing / 8160 mana = 13.253 HPM
PoH: 194070 healing / 13500 mana = 14.376 HPM


Thanks for the numbers! It's true that CoH is going to fall behind PoH with increasing SP, but the difference in scaling between these two spells is rather small and the difference in HPM values will remain rather close.

Still, the advantage of CoH being an instant cast smart heal is one that's hard to quantify, and as long as your PoH has a chance of getting sniped or is unable to hit all 5 in a party, is seems like it'd be much better to just weave CoH in between your PoH casts.

Conversely, if there's a lot of damage going out with miinimal chance of overhealing, it would be much better to just spam PoH, if only for the DI procs.

The ratio between the efficiencies of glyphed CoH and PoH (0.8) is roughly the same as the ratio between the efficiencies of Flash Heal and Greater Heal (0.75). Serendipity would probably bring Flash Heal closer to GHeal than glyphed CoH is to PoH (especially when you factor in DI procs).

So by the same logic, on a single target, you should cast Flash Heal whenever GHeal is going to overheal or be sniped. But that's silly. The correct answer in that situation is to cast neither, because you're wasting mana.

Of course, for AoE, we don't really have a "Heal" equivalent that's substantially more efficient than our AoE "Greater Heal", so it sometimes comes down to a choice between casting the AoE "Flash Heal" or doing nothing. But then the decision comes down to mana budgeting: do you have the extra mana to burn on sniping other healers for your own entertainment?

(Unglyphed CoH is a different matter - it's a bit closer than I thought when I napkin-mathed it after the PoH buff, and is probably worth throwing out on fights where you don't need to glyph it for the throughput gain.)
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
01/19/2013 11:53 AMPosted by Tiriél
And Stone Guard, and Gara'jal, and Blade Lord, and Wind Lord, and Amber Shaper, and parts of Sha of Fear, and Protectors and Tsulong...


I'm thinking your definition of heavy tank damage is different than mine.... I tend to look at heavy tank damage as "oh noes the tank is getting globalled every 2-3 seconds". I'm not going to argue with you over this though... it's not important.

I don't even care if it's a massive overhaul. But they need to do something. Band-aid fixes do not fix anything. They just prolong the pain later.


In a perfect world I'd agree.... It's not a perfect world. I don't trust them to handle a complete overhaul well over a very short period of time. History has shown they repeatedly go overboard in both directions, unexpected things happen and problems magically appear when they make snap decisions in the name of "game balance". It's reached the point where the only analogy I can think of is the little kid who touches the hot stove, gets burnt, screams in agony and continues to touch the hot stove anytime the opportunity presents itself.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The ratio between the efficiencies of glyphed CoH and PoH (0.8) is roughly the same as the ratio between the efficiencies of Flash Heal and Greater Heal (0.75). Serendipity would probably bring Flash Heal closer to GHeal than glyphed CoH is to PoH (especially when you factor in DI procs).

So by the same logic, on a single target, you should cast Flash Heal whenever GHeal is going to overheal or be sniped. But that's silly. The correct answer in that situation is to cast neither, because you're wasting mana.

Of course, for AoE, we don't really have a "Heal" equivalent that's substantially more efficient than our AoE "Greater Heal", so it sometimes comes down to a choice between casting the AoE "Flash Heal" or doing nothing. But then the decision comes down to mana budgeting: do you have the extra mana to burn on sniping other healers for your own entertainment?


The earlier discussion was mostly about unglyphed CoH. I just don't see a reason to not mostly use it on CD, as I've gone through multiple parses and the much higher overhealing from PoH makes CoH more mana efficient and have higher HPS. The only time I wouldn't cast unglyphed CoH over PoH is if I know my PoH will be able to hit all 5 targets and have minimal overhealing.

As mentioned, how you manage your PoM stacks and DI should also be a factor. I tend to favour casting a CoH after using a non-DI PoM as the random nature of DI procs could mean a wasted PoM cast. If only they wouldn't override each other. :\

I guess we subscribe to different mantras. I think the whole notion of snipe healing is silly, especially if you're keeping your assignments alive and are able to manage your mana properly

A Holy Priest is going to glyph accordingly to the fight though. On fights with high burst (Zor'lokk, Empress) or where mana doesn't matter (SG), you should be appropriately casting glyphed CoH on cooldown regardless to take advantage of its higher burst and smart healing capabilities.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
01/19/2013 12:28 PMPosted by Ceddya
I guess we subscribe to different mantras. I think the whole notion of snipe healing is silly, especially if you're keeping your assignments alive and are able to manage your mana properly

Well, I don't think snipe healing is necessarily bad at all. It's harmless, and it may actually help (keeping the raid topped off is always nice for safety).

It's just that it's not the most useful thing one could do with one's mana, so you only do it with 'extra' mana that you'd otherwise end up wasting in an even less useful way.

Typically, when I'm Holy, I don't find I have a whole lot of 'extra' mana when I'm appropriately geared for the content.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/19/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Volios
I'm thinking your definition of heavy tank damage is different than mine.... I tend to look at heavy tank damage as "oh noes the tank is getting globalled every 2-3 seconds". I'm not going to argue with you over this though... it's not important.


Heavy tank damage, to me, is anytime I am actually concerned the tank may die. In the case of Gara'jal, it's more "the tank is spreading his damage around" so maybe not so much tank damage as "tank damage that is multiple people at the same time). I can't remember if you raid 10's or 25's, but I know I spend a lot more time monitoring tanks than I would in a 25 man. If I have to do much beyond a bubble and Atonement, it feels "heavy" to me.

In a perfect world I'd agree.... It's not a perfect world. I don't trust them to handle a complete overhaul well over a very short period of time. History has shown they repeatedly go overboard in both directions, unexpected things happen and problems magically appear when they make snap decisions in the name of "game balance". It's reached the point where the only analogy I can think of is the little kid who touches the hot stove, gets burnt, screams in agony and continues to touch the hot stove anytime the opportunity presents itself.


That's...not a bad analogy. Thing is, is what we have right now any better? These are not new issues. They have persisted for, what, two expacs now? And they're still not fixed.
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100 Human Priest
11385
The crux of the whole problem with Disc being overpowered and needing a nerf of some sort comes down to 3 things

1/ Sprit Shell was OP and needed a nerf. None can argue with this, although nerfing it by the amount of our mastery is a bit of an overkill.
2/ Our mana regen was too high. The proposed change to Rapture seems fair to me.
3/ DA could be stacked to over 150k shields on all players in the entire raid amounting to over 1.5 million in shields. So of course no-one else could register on the healing meters until those shields popped.

2 and 3 together are the main reason we were OP. Many would just keep rolling out PoH because the mana allowed it and it made them look awesome on the meters. Nerfing it is a simple matter of either reducing the percentage of PoH that becomes DA, or putting a ceiling on DA...say 50k? That's at least a 66% nerf. Couple that with a 40% nerf to SS (if you have 40% mastery) and I'd call that fair.

Removing DA from PoH without buffing some other raid heal is just too brutal. I refuse to believe that even the most ignorant developer can't see this. So I still have faith that the listed changes won't be the final ones to go live.
Edited by Bigbuffdaddy on 1/19/2013 7:16 PM PST
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100 Undead Priest
17125
Now that PoH is useless outside of SS, what if it got a bit of a rework and finally got rid of that damn party limitation (unless it has SS). So without spirit shell, PoH would be a smart raid heal while with it it would be a party absorb? It's output would be terrible still, but at least would make up for it by being a smart heal (I imagine holy would probably not be allowed this). Sure the entire class would have no synergy with any of its spells, would be horribly boring, still have no use to have mastery on any piece of gear, but at least it would be viable in a 25man setting.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Poena, how is PoH useless outside of SS? You're still going to use PoH if a group needs their health raised, unless you plan on AFKing every time damage comes out that you couldn't mitigate.

Just because the spell isn't overpowered anymore doesn't mean it's useless, but your dramatization is adorable.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9105
I like how disc has the power to virtually solo-heal fights, but if they do it they're considered ill-mannered jerks for using the full extent of their healing powers and not just using atonement to allow others to "heal/play" instead. Lolwat?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/21/2013 10:50 AMPosted by Astråios
I like how disc has the power to virtually solo-heal fights, but if they do it they're considered ill-mannered jerks for using the full extent of their healing powers and not just using atonement to allow others to "heal/play" instead. Lolwat?


They can do a lot of healing, but they cannot solo heal any encounters. If they could, they already would have.

Hyperbole is not constructive. Please try to be constructive.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
They can do a lot of healing, but they cannot solo heal any encounters. If they could, they already would have.

Stone Guard 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=597&e=807

Feng 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=1113&e=1371

Gara'jal 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=1770&e=1965

Spirit Kings 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=2440&e=2807

Zor'lok 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/99psk2fl9dmpmwwk/sum/healingDone/?s=3429&e=3667

Amber-Shaper 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vuu81h6jzxfhjsk1/sum/healingDone/?s=13305&e=13643

Empress 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7thiei9og02e6sd4/sum/healingDone/?s=2811&e=3035

Protectors 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zhrvljb4h4tgma8a/sum/healingDone/?s=103&e=508

Sha 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4son7j87f4jpv4oh/sum/healingDone/?s=2120&e=2562

Spirit Kings 10H
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k5t1usd52cinix6v/sum/healingDone/?s=2196&e=2526

Elegon 10H
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n4wcje9xgm0mgjg6/sum/healingDone/?s=5270&e=5546

ald I think it's fair to call this a Sha 10H solo:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wvkw2s89oxxrmjd8/sum/healingDone/?s=8744&e=9648
Edited by Kaels on 1/21/2013 11:34 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/21/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Kaels
They can do a lot of healing, but they cannot solo heal any encounters. If they could, they already would have.

Stone Guard 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=597&e=807

Feng 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=1113&e=1371

Spirit Kings 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=2440&e=2807

Zor'lok 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/99psk2fl9dmpmwwk/sum/healingDone/?s=3429&e=3667

Amber-Shaper 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vuu81h6jzxfhjsk1/sum/healingDone/?s=13305&e=13643

Empress 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7thiei9og02e6sd4/sum/healingDone/?s=2811&e=3035

Protectors 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zhrvljb4h4tgma8a/sum/healingDone/?s=103&e=508

Spirit Kings 10H
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-k5t1usd52cinix6v/sum/healingDone/?s=2196&e=2526


They all have hybrids and the best self-healing tanks, too. And in several cases, the hybrids are actively healing while DPSing. But I guess I was wrong. :) With the perfect comp, anything is possible. There's also very little damage outside of fudging the mechanics in many of those fights, so it's entirely possible that you'd be able to soak it all up if your raid members don't screw up on any mechanics.

Particularly on Spirit Kings and Protectors Normal (non elite), there is so little damage that I'm pretty sure I could solo heal them as Holy, that our Resto Druid could solo heal them, etc. They have almost no damage if you do the encounters correctly.

Also, one guild that appears several times in your list - Gong - is solo-healing by having their Shadow Priest and Ele Sham actively offheal. They're even having their tanks pop Healing Potions to keep themselves up.

Gara'jal 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mwawa7m3atkgqee8/sum/healingDone/?s=1770&e=1965


I'm fairly certain that Gara'jal was cheesed in some way, because everyone's uptime is equal, which means absolutely no one went down into the Spirit World. They killed the boss in 3 mins. They also lost 6 of the 10 raid members, including the healer and at least one of the tanks (the one with the less self-healing).

Sha 10N
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4son7j87f4jpv4oh/sum/healingDone/?s=2120&e=2562


There is a second healer. What you're seeing is distance warping the amount of healing done. Had you looked closer, you would have seen the second healer.

Elegon 10H
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-n4wcje9xgm0mgjg6/sum/healingDone/?s=5270&e=5546


They have two healers in this fight. Seriously, Kaels, did you even look at these parses?

ald I think it's fair to call this a Sha 10H solo:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wvkw2s89oxxrmjd8/sum/healingDone/?s=8744&e=9648


You are aware that parses for Sha of Fear aren't accurate because of the distance between Cackled raid members? The healer in that parse is the one who uploaded it. So yes, her healing is going to appear far greater than everyone else's, as on 10 man you are never in the same area with your fellow healer for more than 10-20 seconds at a time until (I believe) the third phase. Note that her fellow healer only has a 73% active time. That's a cardinal sign that they were too far away for the person logging to see their activity. It happens on Gara'jal, too.
Edited by Tiriél on 1/21/2013 11:51 AM PST
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