Huge disc changes in the ptr build

90 Draenei Shaman
17105
This change was 100% required and anyone who didn't see this coming for the last few months is delusional. Disc is around 20% stronger than every other healer according to aggregates of raid parses and has more mana longevity than every other healer. These stats are with the vast majority of guilds still working on progression content; as people get into farm mode and more parses are coming from bosses that are on farm, Disc is going to become more and more ridiculously ahead as absorbs continue to scale with gear and effectively snipe more output from every other healer. Frankly, they should hotfix these changes in.

They just flat out dropped the ball and overbuffed Disc at the start of the expansion because of the amount of excessive whining from priests over how they performed at very low gear levels. The reality is, had they left it alone and people had been able to wait until they were at a reasonable basic gear level before crying bloody murder, Disc probably would have been been properly balanced.

The issue here is that they are nerfing our regen, they're nerfing spirit shell (which should net a ~15% healing reduction) and they're now hitting us with another nerf that will literally be in the neighborhood of 20-30% healing reduction. Now, by your own (compeltely accurate) numbers, this nerf is overkill, and that's all I and a few others here are saying. I think DA being brought back down to 30% instead of 50% would have been a fine change. Combined with SS no longer interacting with mastery, it would have netted us a nerf of around ~20%, exactly what you indicate we need.

Edit: to be clear though, I'm certain this is not going to stick. I think the PW:S/Rapture change is intended (and necessary, our regen was ridiculous,) but the PoH change is not.


No, 20% would not be enough. That would only be enough to bring you down to the level of the 2nd highest healer. The reality is, the nature of absorb heavy healing is to be properly balanced, Disc really needs to be at or near the bottom in terms of throughput. Preventing damage is far more valuable than healing damage up after it has taken place, so it still would not be reasonable for a Disc priest to do the same output as say a Holy Paladin.

On top of that, you have to consider that the nature of the Disc spec means that it scales better with gear than any other healer, so it needs to start the tier lower. Frankly, a 30-35% nerf over where Disc is on live is probably warranted.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
I'm completely fine with the Rapture change as I already have under 9150 Spirit, the DA changes are the frightening ones. Bringing it down to 30% DA on PoH would have been fine, 0% is...a disaster.

Tiberria, as usual you're thinking only about yourself and your 25m perspective. Disc is not 20% ahead of any class in 10m raiding.
Edited by Qùess on 1/16/2013 3:25 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16390
The problem is its not only a nerf to our mana its a HUGE nerf to our throughput. Not a "bringing in line". Its a bat to the face. Its taking disc, and everything its supposted to be about (dmg mitigation) and throwing that outside the window.

There literally will be zero reason for a disc priest over a holy paladin. Zip.
Edited by Irial on 1/16/2013 3:26 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12435
01/16/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Gardiff
If you sit at 9150 spirit, there will be no difference. Below 9150, it will be a buff.


I think you're overthinking this.

If we healed solely through PW:S, that would be true.

Your net mana gain per rapture is 5700

Post-patch, that net mana gain is 2850.


So we gain less mana per Rapture. Mana we use on things like PoH and Smite, which are not having their mana costs reduced. So we won't be able to cast them as much. Because we have less mana :P

Or maybe I'm just not seeing something. Your explanation makes my brain kind of fuzzy.
Edited by Nixx on 1/16/2013 3:27 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/16/2013 03:24 PMPosted by Qùess
Tiberria, as usual you're thinking only about yourself and your 25m perspective. Disc is not 20% ahead of any class in 10m raiding.


No kidding. Does she realize we two heal most fights in 10 man? To have one of the healers not be able to heal might be, well, bad.
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
Hm... let me try it like this

You cannot just look at the end rapture gain in a WoL parse and call it actual "mana gained" because it doesn't take into account the actual mana cost of power word shield. Like you have to subtract rapture from the cost of power word shield.

For example, let's say I am sitting at 40000 mana (with that 9150 spirit number again). I use a shield, my mana drops to 21700. But, let's say my shield popped immediately and so I am right back at 40000 (9150 * 2 (the 200% given by rapture) + 21700).

Post-patch, I am again at 40000 mana (with 9150 spirit again). I use my shield, BUT my mana only drops to 30850 this time since the cost of the shield was reduced as well. Thus, even though I only gain back 9150 mana from rapture (9150 * 1 (the now "nerfed" 100%)) I am back at 40000 mana meaning my net mana gain was still 0.

Thus, that 9150 spirit point is the neutral area where you will see no change come patch day. If you are going past 9150 (I did the example of 12000 spirit), if you do the math you will see that over a 7 minute fight, and assuming you are popping 4 bubbles per minute (which is fair considering a lot of fights have lulls where no damage is going out), your net mana gain will only be 80,000 less over the entire duration of those 7 minutes (when comparing between pre-patch and post-patch) which is the equivalent of 2 concentration potions.

I dunno if that helps, but... it might!
Edited by Gardiff on 1/16/2013 3:38 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
01/16/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Taymage
Tiberria, as usual you're thinking only about yourself and your 25m perspective. Disc is not 20% ahead of any class in 10m raiding.


No kidding. Does she realize we two heal most fights in 10 man? To have one of the healers not be able to heal might be, well, bad.


How does bringing a completely overpowered spec down to the level of every other healing spec in the game make "Disc not able to heal in 10 man?". Even a ~25% nerf to Disc's 10 man performance would still keep it within 5% of 3-4 other healing specs in 10H. Sure, holy paladins will be on top, but you aren't likely to want to use 2 anyway. Plus, the buff to PW:S and the buff to Penance (was announced in the GC post but isn't in patch notes yet) will be more significant in 10 man than 25 man.
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100 Pandaren Priest
12550
Gardiff has it right, and the result is a major nerf to Disc's regen scaling, which was completely necessary.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
01/16/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Taymage
No kidding. Does she realize we two heal most fights in 10 man? To have one of the healers not be able to heal might be, well, bad.


Do you realize Disc can easily do double the healing of their co-healer in 10 man as is?

Speaking from experience (and sitting at 100% mana most fights) I'm almost positive your other healer is more than capable of picking up a little more healing.
Edited by Pebble on 1/16/2013 3:40 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
How does bringing a completely overpowered spec down to the level of every other healing spec in the game make "Disc not able to heal in 10 man?". Even a ~25% nerf to Disc's 10 man performance would still keep it within 5% of 3-4 other healing specs in 10H. Sure, holy paladins will be on top, but you aren't likely to want to use 2 anyway. Plus, the buff to PW:S and the buff to Penance (was announced in the GC post but isn't in patch notes yet) will be more significant in 10 man than 25 man.


You're suggesting we be brought down 35%. Are you dense? You said that exact number yourself.

01/16/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Tiberria
Frankly, a 30-35% nerf over where Disc is on live is probably warranted.


Take a class that's 15% ahead (Disc in 10m), nerf it by 35%, then we're at 80% of the capacity of another healer. In 10m, if a class can't do 100% of the healing another class can, they get sat. Disc will still be viable in 25's, they'll always have at least one, but 10m is not the same.

Do you realize Disc can easily do double the healing of their co-healer in 10 man as is?


Completely irrelevant, logs show all classes are capable of pulling similar numbers as a Disc Priest when one isn't present in the raid. Just because you're stuck healing with one doesn't mean anything to balance.
Edited by Qùess on 1/16/2013 3:43 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/16/2013 03:37 PMPosted by Tiberria
How does bringing a completely overpowered spec down to the level of every other healing spec in the game make "Disc not able to heal in 10 man?"


Funny, because that's not how you described it above:

No, 20% would not be enough. That would only be enough to bring you down to the level of the 2nd highest healer. The reality is, the nature of absorb heavy healing is to be properly balanced, Disc really needs to be at or near the bottom in terms of throughput. Preventing damage is far more valuable than healing damage up after it has taken place, so it still would not be reasonable for a Disc priest to do the same output as say a Holy Paladin.


You said that because absorbs are so valuable, disc priest should be "at or near the bottom" and that it "would not be reasonable for a Disc priest to do the same output as say a Holy Paladin."

In 10 mans, then, to bring a disc priest as one of your healers would mean that if the **** hit the fan, you'd have only one healer capable of actually healing.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Hm... let me try it like this

You cannot just look at the end rapture gain in a WoL parse and call it actual "mana gained" because it doesn't take into account the actual mana cost of power word shield. Like you have to subtract rapture from the cost of power word shield.

For example, let's say I am sitting at 40000 mana (with that 9150 spirit number again). I use a shield, my mana drops to 21700. But, let's say my shield popped immediately and so I am right back at 40000 (9150 * 2 (the 200% given by rapture) + 21700).

Post-patch, I am again at 40000 mana (with 9150 spirit again). I use my shield, BUT my mana only drops to 30850 this time since the cost of the shield was reduced as well. Thus, even though I only gain back 9150 mana from rapture (9150 * 1 (the now "nerfed" 100%)) I am back at 4000 mana meaning my net mana gain was still 0.

Thus, that 9150 spirit point is the neutral area where you will see no change come patch day. If you are going past 9150 (I did the example of 12000 spirit), if you do the math you will see that over a 7 minute fight, and assuming you are popping 4 bubbles per minute (which is fair considering a lot of fights have lulls where no damage is going out), your net mana gain will only be 80,000 less over the entire duration of those 7 minutes which is the equivalent of 2 concentration potions.

I dunno if that helps, but... it might!


No - that is idiotic logic. If you exclude the cost of PW:S when calculating Rapture gains, you are effectively saying that they should give you a PW:S every 12 seconds as completely mana free healing. If doesn't work that way. That argument is the same as saying that Holy Power and Chi based heals should not even be considered when balancing regen (or worse arguing that you should deduct the mana cost of the Holy Shock type generators from the return) and that Resurgence shouldn't count as regen because the spells that you cast to proc it cost mana.

You are spending mana to get the PW:S absorb, and you are getting full advantage of that output if the shield breaks and Rapture procs. 100% of the mana cost that is refunded is part of your regen system, and you are balanced around it.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
Completely irrelevant, logs show all classes are capable of pulling similar numbers as a Disc Priest when one isn't present in the raid. Just because you're stuck healing with one doesn't mean anything to balance.


It may not mean anything to 'balance', but when someone claims disc won't be capable of two healing content in tens it is relevant.

To have one of the healers not be able to heal might be, well, bad.
Edited by Pebble on 1/16/2013 3:49 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
2245
the people from <HC> guild on this forum are so !@#$ing obnoxious and annoying rofl.

anyway I'm seriously wondering what the point of mastery is now that DA is gone from PoH and SS doesn't scale from mastery. It might as well not even exist as a stat post-patch if this is anything close to how it'll be released.


Awesome name Noxnm was simply amazing!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12435
01/16/2013 03:35 PMPosted by Gardiff
Hm... let me try it like this


Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I really misread what you said. I thought you were arguing that it was a buff for people over 9150 spirit. Disregard.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
15835
the people from <HC> guild on this forum are so !@#$ing obnoxious and annoying rofl.

anyway I'm seriously wondering what the point of mastery is now that DA is gone from PoH and SS doesn't scale from mastery. It might as well not even exist as a stat post-patch if this is anything close to how it'll be released.


Reported, I take great offense to that just because what I post is too much for you.


The only thing that's too much for me is your guild's healers circlejerking each other over how right you are about everything. you guys need a new hobby that isn't trolling the healing forums.

I can hear it now, in a couple of hours during your raid having a good time over vent "haha did you guys see the new priest nerfs? haha we called that didn't we? remember that time when we said priests were fine? and they buffed priests? and now theyre getting nerfed? oh man haha how right were we."
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/16/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Qùess
Completely irrelevant, logs show all classes are capable of pulling similar numbers as a Disc Priest when one isn't present in the raid. Just because you're stuck healing with one doesn't mean anything to balance.


It's not only irrelevant, it's a gross generalization, it's not particularly accurate, and it depends entirely on things like the nature of the fight, the raid composition, etc.
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