Huge disc changes in the ptr build

90 Draenei Shaman
17105
01/17/2013 02:12 AMPosted by Tiriél


Yeah.. thats not the same at all.

Its pretty much a given that preventing damage is superior.


That entirely depends on the mechanics of the damage preventing ability, and the mechancis of the fight. We're in a tier right now that incredibly caters to SS, and this is heavily skewing people's perceptions.


Any fight that has either constant raid damage or burst raid damage on a predictable timer is going to "cater" to SS, and that has nothing to do with this tier, it's every tier and every fight.

The comparison to DoTs and single target DPS is ridiculous; healing is not even the same thing. The reality is, 100,000 damage absorbed will always be undisputably better than 100,000 damage healed. Throughput from absorbs needs to count for more than throughput from effective healing for classes to be balanced correctly. Even if Disc is at the bottom (which I would argue is where it needs to be at the start of a tier given the mechanics of the spec), it is still providing significant value to the raid over and above pure throughput.
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87 Blood Elf Priest
5730


That entirely depends on the mechanics of the damage preventing ability, and the mechancis of the fight. We're in a tier right now that incredibly caters to SS, and this is heavily skewing people's perceptions.


Any fight that has either constant raid damage or burst raid damage on a predictable timer is going to "cater" to SS, and that has nothing to do with this tier, it's every tier and every fight.

The comparison to DoTs and single target DPS is ridiculous; healing is not even the same thing. The reality is, 100,000 damage absorbed will always be undisputably better than 100,000 damage healed. Throughput from absorbs needs to count for more than throughput from effective healing for classes to be balanced correctly. Even if Disc is at the bottom (which I would argue is where it needs to be at the start of a tier given the mechanics of the spec), it is still providing significant value to the raid over and above pure throughput.


Next time someone is missing 100k hp I'll be sure a remember to throw that 100k absorb on them. It will totally be better than actually filling their health bar.

That you think absorbs are always better than raw healing on every fight on every encounter for every type of damage really shows how little you know about actually using them.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
01/17/2013 05:27 AMPosted by Martyrofsand
Next time someone is missing 100k hp I'll be sure a remember to throw that 100k absorb on them. It will totally be better than actually filling their health bar.


You have penance for that, and greater heal. Don't try to deny that absorbs are better than healing after the fact, because they are not.

Might be a little overboard but disc was and will inevitably come in contact with the nerf bat.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
Next time someone is missing 100k hp I'll be sure a remember to throw that 100k absorb on them. It will totally be better than actually filling their health bar.


Of course not, don't be silly. The question becomes - why didn't you prevent the 100k damage to begin with?

Preventing damage is better than reacting to it. Failing to prevent damage doesn't change that fact.
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90 Tauren Druid
14615
The new Glyph Of Binding Heal is pretty interesting. That could potentially be a ghetto second aoe heal for disc. The other night while healing sha I was pretty annoyed that half of the people on the small platform were in one group and half were in another making me cast PoH twice. A 3 person binding heal would be pretty nice there.

Also... wtf is with the notes saying "•Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit"

Is it 150% or 250%?
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The new Glyph Of Binding Heal is pretty interesting. That could potentially be a ghetto second aoe heal for disc. The other night while healing sha I was pretty annoyed that half of the people on the small platform were in one group and half were in another making me cast PoH twice. A 3 person binding heal would be pretty nice there.

Also... wtf is with the notes saying "•Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit"

Is it 150% or 250%?


The glyphed Binding Heal could be really interesting to use. Too bad it's really high mana cost is going to be extremely prohibitive and limiting. :\

Also, it's 25% and 150%.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/17/2013 6:56 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
The glyph of Binding Heal probably isn't going to be worthwhile for Discipline. Discipline's conventional heals are simply too awful. For Holy, it'll be great due to FDCL/Serendipity.


I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion. As far as I can tell with that BH glyph it'd be a viable AoE option in multiple situations. It'd be about half as much HPM as PoH but over 30% higher HPS at 30k spellpower. This is assuming PoH gets stripped of the guaranteed DA. So it'd be a choice between HPM and 5 targets getting healing or HPS and 3 targets getting healing.

Believe it or not buffing penance by 20% and removing the guaranteed DA on PoH would make offensive penance almost as efficient as PoH at 30k spellpower, before evangelism. It would be less HPS though. So there it's a choice between doing damage with the healing as a channeled spell or doing more HPS/healing with PoH. Throw in 5 evangelism stacks and it'd actually be more efficient than PoH with almost identical healing and damage output to boot.

I'd say many people have been demanding another AoE healing tool to push Disc away from such a huge reliance on PoH. My assumption is they are nerfing PoH and buffing existing abilities in some way to accomplish this instead.

My question is are they trying to say "use some combination of PW:S, PoH, SS PoH, offensive penance, PoM, cascade/halo/divine star and, yes, binding heal for aoe damage situations? It would definitely give us a pretty good mix if it worked.

Despite the "bubble spamming" talk in this thread I don't see how that would even work if PoH loses guaranteed DA. The mastery stat might as well not exist anymore for anything but PW:S. If this happens you aren't going to continue piling on mastery. If you're not piling on mastery shield spamming isn't going to be a good idea. I'm actually worried about how they are going to handle that change with spirit shell.
Edited by Volios on 1/17/2013 7:19 AM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Rapture change - Getting 250% of spirit from rapture would have been insane. To put it in perspective, every 15 seconds all healers get 168% of their spirit as mana from normal regen. Rapture would mean that disc gets triple the regen scaling of other classes.

PW:S Cost reduction. Wow. PVP buff. Low gear buff. Seriously.

PoH Change - Interesting. I'm all for the "filler" spell being the weakest spell in the arsenal. But I think Disc needs another non-filler AoE healing spell. And mastery balancing is going to be tricky, either PW:S spam and get great mastery benefit or minimal PW:S and crit/haste stack.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
01/17/2013 08:11 AMPosted by Pitkanen
But I think Disc needs another non-filler AoE healing spell.

Why?

With AA up, Disc's post-nerf PoH is as strong as Holy's in Chakra: Sanctuary, which is itself stronger than CoH, and easily competitive with what other classes can do.

With SS up, it's even stronger than that.

Combined, you can keep AA and Spirit Shell up for 51 seconds/minute, or basically 100% of the time that you're not using Atonement spells to get Eva for AA. And even with neither CD up, Disc still matches Holy PoH in Serenity, which, by the way, is nothing to sneeze at.

Oh, and there's still Cascade for a CD heal.

Disc doesn't need additional AoE. Disc has AoE handled. It used to need additional targeted spot healing, but I'm not even sure that's true anymore since the Atonement range buff. Actually, I'm not even sure it needs anything at this point, aside from some time to test the changes.

Oh, I know. Tank healing still kind of sucks, especially on 2 tanks.
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90 Human Priest
17065
01/17/2013 07:17 AMPosted by Volios
My question is are they trying to say "use some combination of PW:S, PoH, SS PoH, offensive penance, PoM, cascade/halo/divine star and, yes, binding heal for aoe damage situations? It would definitely give us a pretty good mix if it worked.


The 5.2 PTR changes reeks of "I know what I want but I have no idea how to do it, so I'm going to start pushing random buttons and levers and hope the masses can figure it out."

All they needed to do to make that happen is to fix DA so that priests in a 25 can't effectively roll it up and down the raid forever on limitless mana. Unlinking rapture from temp spirit buff is the mana fix. But unlinking SS from mastery, then making DA flat 50%, then making it DA-POH crit-only makes gearing and spellchoice one big damn headache @_@

Fact: Absorbs needs to be stable, predictable, and controllable to be effective. Linking it all to an RNG stat effectively renders it useless.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand raider nature.

They want us to 'use more PWS', but they make the one secondary stat that effects it practically useless for everything else. They want us to 'use it more' but not 'spam it like Wrath'. But that is simply not going to happen because the moment our mana can sustain it as we progress up the raiding tier, we are going to spam it for predictable AE for max effect. As per Spirit Shell and POH-DA shows, if we have a mechanic we know we can abuse for use, we will abuse it, we aren't going to go "blizz wants us to only use PWS 5 times per minute, let's do that and keep to it."

As said in my other post on the priest forums. Unlinking mastery from SS doesn't solve the whole 'raid mech negating OPness' issue. Discs are still going to roll it in 25s - only to a lesser effect if they decide to roll it on 4 groups and not 2, and discs in 10s are still going to roll it and do massive absorbs with only 2 groups to roll on.

I'd go on and on but at this point I'm sort of out of breath and going 'siiiiigh here we go again'.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Fact: Absorbs needs to be stable, predictable, and controllable to be effective. Linking it all to an RNG stat effectively renders it useless.

It seems like Blizzard doesn't understand raider nature.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
Agreed I don't think discipline needs another AoE. With the level 90 talents like you said + other stuff, they have the tools to do it.

I just think they need to adjust the mastery (either the number or change it to something else) because come patch day it feels a lot weaker.

Just an FYI, with the changes again to rapture (now shield is only 25% cheaper but rapture is at 150%), its barely a nerf compared to what we have on live. When comparing pre-patch and post-patch with the current iteration of the notes, a BiS discipine priest will basically regen 40,000 less mana over a 7 minute fight which is just 1 concentration potion which is so minor almost no one will feel it (if you don't pot now, then its no difference to you).

I do really like that glyph of bind heal. I believe discipline priests will probably glyph it for 10 mans. Glyph of weakened soul isn't horrible either.

Plus a straightup change to penance is very welcomed as well.

now that the full notes are out, it seems a little bit better. I think the biggest hurdle now though is to make mastery a more appealing stat. As it stands, secondary stat priorities feel like they will not really matter that much which is kind of lame.

edit - actually, i don't know about binding heal. Like how does it choose a 3rd target? It doesn't really make any sense as it stands... so not sure about it.
Edited by Gardiff on 1/17/2013 9:10 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Priest
9130
01/17/2013 07:17 AMPosted by Volios
I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion. As far as I can tell with that BH glyph it'd be a viable AoE option in multiple situations. It'd be about half as much HPM as PoH but over 30% higher HPS at 30k spellpower. This is assuming PoH gets stripped of the guaranteed DA. So it'd be a choice between HPM and 5 targets getting healing or HPS and 3 targets getting healing.


The problem with glyph of binding heal is that you have to need a heal for it to work. If you're not in need of a full flash heal it's just terrible especially at 35% more cost. When I'm doing the sort of '2~3 people need a heal' type of healing rarely am I one of those persons in need of a heal.

I suppose that they are wanting the atonement with stronger penance to be used for that sort of thing. Last night my average offensive penance tick was about 51k, 20% stronger would make 3 ticks of 61k. That's not terrible compared to holy's CoH which in my gear will heal 6 people for about 30k, glyphed.

The real problem is when you have 5+ people who need a heal but it's spread out across groups. If you have one or two persons in each group that needs healing it's just a pain. Right now you can use PoH and count on the DA to make it not suck; that really won't be an option if you only get the DA on crit.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
01/17/2013 09:09 AMPosted by Flurbiprofen
The real problem is when you have 5+ people who need a heal but it's spread out across groups. If you have one or two persons in each group that needs healing it's just a pain. Right now you can use PoH and count on the DA to make it not suck; that really won't be an option if you only get the DA on crit.

Everyone has issues in that situation, except maybe shamans on a stack fight. Everyone else has 1 smart heal they may be able to hit, 1 instant, and then they're stuck with single-target heals or HoTs/AoEs with probable mass overhealing.

This was a major problem for Disc because its single-target direct heals are dramatically inferior to everyone else's for that application. But now, with 40-yard Atonement? Smite casts as fast as a Flash Heal, does all its healing up front, and its target is chosen when the heal goes off rather than when you start casting. There's a very strong argument to be made that it's at the very least superior to holy priests' and druids' options, and it's not bad (certainly less finicky and overheal-y) compared to Beacon-swapping Holy Light. Oh, and it has major side benefits: it does nontrivial DPS and using it it helps you maximize AA uptime.

Really, when this all shakes out, assuming they get the numbers right (I think they may have overnerfed Spirit Shell), Disc's only major weakness is going to be that it sort of sucks as a tank healer. Oh, and it might be spammy-feeling, depending on the end result for PWS/Rapture.

(I really think they need to decouple Rapture from Spirit, tbh. The scaling is going to be a problem no matter what.)
Edited by Kaels on 1/17/2013 9:37 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
Next time someone is missing 100k hp I'll be sure a remember to throw that 100k absorb on them. It will totally be better than actually filling their health bar.


Yep. And again, it is exactly that situation that may make it difficult for 10 man raids where one of the two healers is a disc priest.
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90 Human Priest
7595
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but my first impression is that Crit is now stat #1 for Disc. Yes/No?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
I agree a lot with what you're saying Kaels, but that's looking at a smaller party sample. Yes, our "AoE" healing options, in the sense that heals hit more than one target, are numerous and effective on 2 or 3 people. We can only have one spell that hits more than 5 people and it's on a CD far longer than anything similar our fellow healers have for the same purpose. Since a lot of these changes were aimed at curbing PoH spam on 25-person raids, how are we as Discipline now supposed to deal with that scenario with our 2-3-5 person heals?

That's the other AoE heal we're asking about. Right now it looks like the answer is to shield spam as many people beforehand and 2-3 heal people you missed afterwards and that just doesn't seem ideal or fun at all. It's kind of a giant, gaping hole in our toolbox that every other healer seems to have and we just don't, and for really no good reason.
Edited by Khendra on 1/17/2013 10:13 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/17/2013 06:17 AMPosted by Pebble
Of course not, don't be silly. The question becomes - why didn't you prevent the 100k damage to begin with?


They had Weakened Soul, PoH no longer applies DA and SS was on CD.

There, I answered your facetious question. :)

Preventing damage is better than reacting to it. Failing to prevent damage doesn't change that fact.


I'll just repeat this one more time, and maybe this time you'll read for comprehension instead of repeating the same line over and over again with no actual understanding of what you're saying: Absorbs are only superior to actual healing depending on the mechanics of the absorb you used and the mechanics of the ability taking away the health (i.e. the fight mechanics themselves).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10625
01/17/2013 10:06 AMPosted by Leerah
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but my first impression is that Crit is now stat #1 for Disc. Yes/No?

No! No, no, no, no, no. And also no.

Crit is worse on the PTR than it is on live, because crit DAs won't be rolled until used like they are now. And also PWS will be a much more significant part of your healing, and PWS gets absolutely nothing from Crit.

Haste = Spirit for PoH-heavy play, Spirit > Mastery for PWS-heavy, Spirit > balanced Haste/Mastery for a mixed playstyle.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I agree a lot with what you're saying Kaels, but that's looking at a smaller party sample. Yes, our "AoE" healing options, in the sense that heals hit more than one target, are numerous and effective on 2 or 3 people. We can only have one spell that hits more than 5 people and it's on a CD far longer than anything similar our fellow healers have for the same purpose. Since a lot of these changes were aimed at curbing PoH spam on 25-person raids, how are we as Discipline now supposed to deal with that scenario with our 2-3-5 person heals?

That's the other AoE heal we're asking about. Right now it looks like the answer is to shield spam as many people beforehand and 2-3 heal people you missed afterwards and that just doesn't seem ideal or fun at all.


This, and what Zamboozle said echo my concerns at the moment.

It doesn't help that the entire situation feels like Blizzard is shooting Magic Missiles into the darkness and hoping one lands. It's difficult not to get antsy when it feels like the Developers have no freaking clue where they're going.
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