The real issue with Disc Healing.....

90 Pandaren Priest
8925
I think is grossly humorous that there are so many people up in arms about the "nerf" to Disc Priests and I find it even more so that the devs are so oblivious to what actually makes disc priests so amazing atm.

Let me say this and perhaps people will stop crying that the sky is falling...

Spirit Shell on a 60 second Cooldown is so far and away the most powerful ability in the game its just stupid. There is no other healer that can lay down a 3,000,000 effictive heal with 0% overhealing in PREPERATION for raid damage not in reaction. Even with the PTR nerf to make mastery not effect Spirit Shell how many people actually realize that mastery does not increase the max that SS can be stacked to only the speed in which you are able to stack it to max? With AA stacks you will still have zero problems getting max Spirit shells up to trivialize mechanics in 10 man raids. In 25 man raids there will be a decrease in your SS stacking since you are spreading it around 5 groups instead of 2.

Far to often people get all wrapped up in HPS numbers when they dont even understand what makes classes amazing all the DA nerf on PoH is going to do is make our healing partners not OH so much and change the landscape of our raid almost nothing. There are a few instances like the last phose of heroic elegon where we will see a throughput hit but its not like you are going to go from being able to kill Heroic Elegon to not having that ability with this "nerf".

If spirit shell doesnt ever change the disc priest will still be the most sought after healer in 10 mans hands down nothing will come close. What else are you going to bring?

Holy Priest.....Divine Hymm and GS HoH

Holy Paladin.....Devo Aura and Sac/Bop/Freedom

Mistweaver....Revival Life Cocoon

Resto Druid...Tranq Ironbark Treeform

Resto Shaman...HTT SLT Ascendance HoH

Guess what you have good throughput and you have barrier and Pain suppression that would put you pretty even with every other healer....OH AND YOU HAVE SPIRIT SHELL EVERY 60 SECONDS!!!!!!! Nothing is even close to that in terms of raid viable Cooldowns and trivializing mechanics and lets not forget that tranq/HTT/Dhymm dont heal 10 people at once like SS however Revival does but Revival is usually like 40-60% overheal since its in 1 hit.

Any compitent healer in a compitent group understands that healing currently isnt as much about HPS as it is about surviving certian mechanics phases of a fight and aside from that healing is super boring and its so easy that I spend almost all of my time spamming smite/holyfire/pennance on the boss this is even in Hardmodes and while my guild isnt mega cutting edge we are 5/6 heroic MSV.

So could we please stop with the 4324323423 page flame threads about how worthless disc priests are about to become. If you only quantify your raid contribution by the hps number on recount/skada/wol you probably arent a compitent enough raider to even be commenting on the proposed changes on the ptr.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I get what you're saying, but do you think we really needed another thread about this?
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90 Gnome Priest
17125

Any compitent healer in a compitent group understands that healing currently isnt as much about HPS as it is about surviving certian mechanics phases of a fight


I'm going to have to disagree when it comes to priest healing. If you're not pulling the hps then you're doing it wrong. surviving mechanics and doing the hps aren't things that need to be separated.

and the one thing disc has issues with in large raids is "topping up the raid" We don't have a cd to top up the raid and our only aoe for topping up the raid is prayer of healing which only does about 30k per person it hits. If disc has a weak spot its aoe healing. (not counting absorbs)
Edited by Zolvolt on 1/18/2013 1:30 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
8925

Any compitent healer in a compitent group understands that healing currently isnt as much about HPS as it is about surviving certian mechanics phases of a fight


I'm going to have to disagree when it comes to priest healing. If you're not pulling the hps then you're doing it wrong. surviving mechanics and doing the hps aren't things that need to be separated.

and the one thing disc has issues with in large raids is "topping up the raid" We don't have a cd to top up the raid and our only aoe for topping up the raid is prayer of healing which only does about 30k per person it hits. If disc has a weak spot its aoe healing. (not counting absorbs)


LOL i wonder if you are even cognizant of the fact you are making my point my while trying to disagree with me.

PS if you honestly think that healing 3,000,000 damage and completely making it not happen is the same thing its sad you even felt the need to reply to this thread.
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100 Goblin Priest
10405
Jadawin,

I'm curious you are running with quite a lot of crit, is that a conscious decision given the impending changes to Disc, or do you favor a crit heavy build?

Secondly if this is a recent change and you are going to participate in the PTR evaluation, are you planning on sharing your thoughts with the community?

Personally given the changes I'll be altering how I heal slightly however I'm not sure if I'll be switching to favor crit to the exclusion of a significant amount of mastery and am curious on other priests thoughts.

~M
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100 Undead Priest
10540
You know we've always had spirit shell, it was just in the form of bubbling everyone. You know how long of a cd that has? Zero seconds. Spirit shell is formidable, but using it every minute on every fight probably isn't the wisest thing to do because you can blow through your mana quickly with it. And nobody was complaining about spirit shell when we were the worst healer...
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93 Blood Elf Priest
7430
In 10 man's u can cap the group, but not in 25's. and 3 million is alot, but look at the mana requirement, 7 casts at 13.5k mana is 94.5k mana or 31% of your mana pool. Look at Divine Hymn it can do 1.5mil healing and only costs what 18-19k mana. Dont forget that SS needs quite a bit of time to line up, if u cant cast for that entire 15 sec every cast u cant complete is 428k (using 3mil/7cast). Now from testing the Iron Quon on the Ptr, yes I can still do a 2.4mil ss but it requires more time.

Dont just look at one aspect of Disc's toolkit because that means nothing. You need to look at everything as a whole.

And if you're going to compare it to holy look at the aoe burst healing they have. Disc cant compete with that. If !@#$ happens holy is much better at reactively healing where disc is proactive. While we may be slightly overtuned, I dont feel that we are so OP that it isnt worth bringing anything other than disc priests.
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01/18/2013 01:19 PMPosted by Zolvolt
and the one thing disc has issues with in large raids is "topping up the raid" We don't have a cd to top up the raid and our only aoe for topping up the raid is prayer of healing which only does about 30k per person it hits. If disc has a weak spot its aoe healing. (not counting absorbs)


This is true, but this is also the reason why we have a co-healer. We do not need to be able to do absolutely everything ourselves.
Edited by Morenn on 1/18/2013 9:15 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
01/18/2013 08:25 PMPosted by Silencieux
And if you're going to compare it to holy look at the aoe burst healing they have. Disc cant compete with that.

You know what Holy casts for AoE burst when Divine Hymn is on CD (i.e. over 90% of the time)? Prayer of Healing in Chakra: Sanctuary, with possibly PoM on CD. You can literally ignore the rest of their toolkit because it all sucks (read up on Holy, CoH is pathetic and Sanc is irrelevant.) The only spells you need to pay attention to are PoH and PoM in Sanc.

Guess what? Disc PoH and PoM with AA up are identical in burst healing power to Holy's PoH and PoM in Sanc. So when you need to deal with burst when SS is down, get your AA up and heal like a holy priest.

(Yes, you use AA with SS once a minute. That means you've got one more AA each minute for non-SS burst. If the "burst" is happening more than once every 30 seconds, it's not really "burst.")
Edited by Kaels on 1/18/2013 9:24 PM PST
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90 Human Monk
10330
01/18/2013 01:14 PMPosted by Tiriél
I get what you're saying, but do you think we really needed another thread about this?


This was prettttyy much my reaction as well =/
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90 Pandaren Priest
8925
01/18/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Nicé
You know we've always had spirit shell, it was just in the form of bubbling everyone. You know how long of a cd that has? Zero seconds. Spirit shell is formidable, but using it every minute on every fight probably isn't the wisest thing to do because you can blow through your mana quickly with it. And nobody was complaining about spirit shell when we were the worst healer...


I always love posts like this since when did we have the ability to lay down 265,000 shields on 10 people at the same time? oh thats right we never did have that ability at the very best currently you could be looking at approx 30-40% of that with bubble spams. Again you should do some basic math before you start talking like you know or understand something.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8925
In 10 man's u can cap the group, but not in 25's. and 3 million is alot, but look at the mana requirement, 7 casts at 13.5k mana is 94.5k mana or 31% of your mana pool. Look at Divine Hymn it can do 1.5mil healing and only costs what 18-19k mana. Dont forget that SS needs quite a bit of time to line up, if u cant cast for that entire 15 sec every cast u cant complete is 428k (using 3mil/7cast). Now from testing the Iron Quon on the Ptr, yes I can still do a 2.4mil ss but it requires more time.

Dont just look at one aspect of Disc's toolkit because that means nothing. You need to look at everything as a whole.

And if you're going to compare it to holy look at the aoe burst healing they have. Disc cant compete with that. If !@#$ happens holy is much better at reactively healing where disc is proactive. While we may be slightly overtuned, I dont feel that we are so OP that it isnt worth bringing anything other than disc priests.


The only problem when comparing DHymm to SS is that you can only make that discussion in a situation where you are going to get 100% out of the DHymm. I think we can both agree that getting 100% out of a SS is much easier than getting it out of a Dhymm and any solid priest who is a proactive player is going to lay those SSs when they know some big damage is incoming.

The Disc toolkit isnt what is throwing things out of whack at its just Spirit Shell just look at some of these numbers in top healing parses in 10 man heroic raiding in Heart of Fear.

Imperial Vizier Zorlok
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vhxzmm3pq700qhc5/details/1/?s=36&e=551
34% of all healing from SS
Blade Lord Tayek
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-g036cq2dqngrahl1/details/19/?s=1867&e=2306
39.3% of all healing from SS
Garalon
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xrq4jxyhl2qu5ixw/details/7/?s=5804&e=6183
20.8% of all healing from SS
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/lsn5k8tehz4dovnx/details/3/?s=4476&e=4751
25.2% of all healing from SS
Amber Shaper
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9yttkna8c360o00j/details/0/?s=6954&e=7429
21% of all healing from SS
Grand Empress
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6u5wg990n068031r/details/10/?s=13171&e=13751
23% of all healing from SS

Now if you want I can do this all day show you Wol report after WoL report that all show the same thing.......the CD on SS is way to short for the power of the ability. My 1 and only point for the entire disc priest nerf blowout was that they could nerf the living tar out of every single ability we have but if they leave SS in its current form/CD then we wil continue to be the healer of choice in 10 mans due to the nature of healing. So many people look at throughput and think it means something when we are overhealing 20-40% as healing teams in 10 man as is. So the throughput nerf is going to make the overhealing look a bit better yet still enable us to bypass mechanic after mechanic on a 60 second timer?

Again i will spell it out...If they leave Spirit Shell in its current form no healer will even come close to the ability of a disc priest in the 10 man raid scene. What has taken place on these forums from even a bunch of heroic raiding players in terms of ignorant whining about thier place on recount/skada/WoL is just ridiculous. Doing a few k less HPS on skada wont make me forget the fact that Blade Lord Tayek just Dropped an Unseen strike for 0 damage or that Imperial Vizers Force and Verve didnt drop anyone below 75% life or completely trivialized the Sonic Explosion mechanic on Grand Empress. Being able to do all of these things isnt about DA or Shields or mana regen or Rapture or anything except SS and just changing the Scaling of it with Mastery is TROLOLOLOL.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I'd like to point out, Jadawin, that you are neglecting to factor in just how strongly every encounter in Heart of Fear favors Spirit Shell and Disc abilities in general. Heart of Fear is to Discipline what DS was to Resto Shaman. Every single encounter favors us to a completely ridiculous extent. But the encounters in HoF are not the only type of encounter that has existed, does exist, or will exist in the future in WoW. You need to consider that, too, while you're going on your nerf crusade.
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Why must there be 10 topics (and growing) about discipline priest nerfs on the first page of the healing forums? You people are turning the healing forums, into the priest forums.

PURE madness. There's too many of you.
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1 Troll Shaman
0
PURE madness. There's too many of you.
I wonder what could be the reason why...
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90 Human Priest
8815
Why must there be 10 topics (and growing) about discipline priest nerfs on the first page of the healing forums? You people are turning the healing forums, into the priest forums.

PURE madness. There's too many of you.


Until people realise the issue is spirit shell & predictable incoming damage burst on 1 min cds in the current raid tier as others in the thread have demonstrated. Please be constructive and if you have a counter arguement offer it. If you don't have a counter because you agree then voice your support. If you think it's wrong, but don't really have a reason then don't bother to open the thread.

The skill is OP once we got enough spirit to support it, and current raid mechanics are ridiculously designed around making it insanely overpowered. Make a spot healing fight and we're no better than other healers. Make a movement heavy fight and we're junk compared to classes with instants. It's as if every fight right now made disc as powerful as ultrax did for paladins in DS and that's more on blizzard than anything.
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100 Human Priest
13465
01/18/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Jadawin
There are a few instances like the last phose of heroic elegon where we will see a throughput hit but its not like you are going to go from being able to kill Heroic Elegon to not having that ability with this "nerf".

Heroic elegon 10M has been solo healed.
SPOILER ALERT: it was a disc priest using almost exclusively atonement, even in the last phase.
In otherwords, awesome example, in fact it would be easier to solo heal with the changes coming in 5.2.
Liked.
Edited by Merize on 1/19/2013 5:50 AM PST
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93 Blood Elf Priest
7430
When coh is glyphed according to twisted's calculations its more hps but less hpm, when its unglyphed its less hps and hpm. Also Holy's poh seems stronger than Discs. You can get some on the order of 45k non-crits and with the amount of mastery I had (32%) that's virtually 60k. Lets not forget that Holy can also proc POM which is monstrous amounts of healing.

While Disc and holy may press similar buttons, abilities like Divine Insight proccing POM, Chakra lightspring and Divine Hymn change the way they play.

I do agree that Sanc is garbage in 10's.

Spirit Shell most likely will continue to make up a large portion of a Disc Priests healing in 5.2. At the same time its very expensive and takes coordination. As others have stated when there is predictable dmg its very strong, if we cant predict damage then its effectiveness drops significantly. Also if we are going to touch on its strength and mana costs, another reason why its a go to ability is because we can afford to drop 100k mana in 15 sec. Right now Rapture returns far too much mana. Im glad its mana return was reduced becasue right now there is no penalty for running low on mana for disc. According to the ingame tooltip for 5.2 Rapture returns 100% of spirit, which was 13k at the 517 il. This change will most likely make disc priests think before spending 1/3 of their mana pool in 15 sec.

TL:dr I think disc and SS feels so strong because even though spending 100k mana in 15 sec is a lot, our rapture return can easily revert that at no consequence.
Edited by Silencieux on 1/19/2013 9:24 AM PST
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