How would YOU gone about to Nerf Disc?

90 Night Elf Priest
13930
I liked all of your changes except one, Kaels: Hymn of Hope retaining its channel.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
You are right at 1m damage. 30k*5 people = 150k per cast of POH, x1.15 (crit bonus) = 175k x 1.45 (mastery - figures based off my gear with raid crit and mastery buff) that would equal 250k per cast or 1m over 4 charges. However, that is 10 seconds worth of cast time (pre haste) or 100k HPS - which I imagine would be lower than other specs burst capability - albeit one that is unlikely to OH.

While that's true, you have to look at its impact on mechanics. Yes, it takes time to set up. But when the damage goes off, you've got 10 people (a full raid) shielded for 100k health. You've basically negated 25% of the damage that could possibly theoretically be done to them in a burst.

That's at least the same mitigation as the current PWB (probably more, since high-frequency bursts are usually less than 90% of the raid's health), but on a 1-minute CD and without the stacking requirement. And it's not the only healing you do for that burst - you can do your share of healing up afterwards as well.

I like 1-minute CDs too. I just think 1-minute absorption CDs are a problem. Maybe it would be OK under your design with 2 charges/minute. Or maybe we can come up with a different sort of CD.
Edited by Kaels on 1/19/2013 1:52 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
01/19/2013 01:21 PMPosted by Elethia
I liked all of your changes except one, Kaels: Hymn of Hope retaining its channel.

What, you think you can do other things while you sing? Blasphemy.
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90 Night Elf Priest
17620
1) Spirit Shell - Spell change. It is now a stance. When active it converts (not add onto) a % of all direct healing (this includes Penance) into a DA shield (10? 15?). Mastery either makes the amount of converted absorbed go up or increases the converted amount (jury is still out). When not in SS mode all healing is 'raw'. Crits activate DA.

Oh goodness please no, I do enough stance dancing between Will and Fire.

Good ideas in here, good reads.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13930
01/19/2013 01:44 PMPosted by Kaels
I liked all of your changes except one, Kaels: Hymn of Hope retaining its channel.

What, you think you can do other things while you sing? Blasphemy.


;)

Hymn of Hope: 40 yd range. [Instant to 3 second cast]

The Priest calls upon faith, loosing a resounding note of pure song to bolster the Spirit of nearby party and raid members.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
Buff the healing on PoH and reduce the automatic shield component enough that non-crits won't stack it up much in a decent timeframe. Remove the temporary spirit buffs from Rapture. Reduce the effectiveness of Spirit Shell by 20%, however you want to accomplish that. Maybe some cost increases across the board.
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1) Fix the out-of-control scaling of rapture in some way. Even the current iteration on PTR would be acceptable.

2) Make PoH less attractive to spam without gutting its ability to help pre-shield.

*could possibly address 2, and the issue of mastery being blah by:
Divine Aegis: Any overhealing is converted to a shield at a 3:1 ratio (30k overheal = 10k shield), the resulting shield can be bosted by mastery. (3:1 chosen to prevent it from being "what is done" and more of something that is done "when needed")
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90 Human Priest
17015
The current ptr changes are already doing some interesting things in terms of nerfing/buffing the class.

How I would go about changing the class after examining the current intentions behind the changes and the mathematical implications of the changes? I would scrape the reduced mana cost from Evangelism. Chain casting those spells is skewing the ratios of procs and other spells, and there is hardly a drawback from a pure throughput perspective to staying at 5 stacks and chain casting dps spells. Imo, the best way to go about changing that would be to make sure that the mana costs are felt.

This would serve to prevent discs from stacking dps stats at the expense of spirit for maxing atonement dps, and would prevent discs from using atonement as the go to for every light healing situation.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
I don't see how stacking throughput instead of regen or using an efficient healing priority for low healing situations is a problem.
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90 Human Priest
17200
What I would do:

1) Keep the auto aegis of PoH gone but buff PoH 30% in healing done to return to pre 50% stupid buff levels. - This is needed for Sustained AoE where we currently look to be lacking (and were lacking pre buffs)

2) radically redesign SS - make it a 6 second channel where each second spent channeling puts a bubble worth 6% of the priests max health on everyone in the raid - if the priest channels for the full 6 seconds there is a 36% priests max health shield on the raid or ~120k shield using current numbers.

This retains the requirement to spend several seconds in advance to protect the raid and removes the unplesant PoH dependance.

3) Rapture becomes a fixed% of base mana once every 12 seconds 4-5% seems reasonable.

4) Redesign mastery to give a damage reduction if you have a priests shield on you - this keeps the theme of the mastery while avoiding bubbles going balistic as in 5.1 or wrath exact% reduction to be determined via iteration but a base of 5% up to 15% at the end of the expansion sounds viable.

5) Heal needs to be changed it's still a spell that just doesn't cut it in the modern atonement age. Add to borrowed time that the next two heals are instant lasting 12 seconds
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
I actually like the direction they are going.

What I'd like to see in addition:

Penance: does not actually get 20% buff, but changes to a base CD of 10 seconds and scales with haste to get extra ticks with breakpoints at 17 & 36% as it did in beta. This allows Borrowed Time more active synergy within the spec.

Spirit Shell: Redesigned. When activated, the next heal cast by the priest will apply a shield instead of an absorb. This affects ANY healing spell cast by the priest. Does not interact with Atonement for mechanical reasons. This absorb is affected by mastery. 1 minute CD. This is how the spell was originally proposed and is predicated on the idea that if our healing spells are balanced as heals, this mechanic would be fine.

The above will free up the resources to realize GC's idea of PoH being the AoE Greater Heal and CoH to be the AoE Flash Heal. Discipline will gain access to this iteration of Circle of Healing, however Renew will be removed from Disc's tool kit (it would react poorly with the above version of Spirit Shell).

Mastery: base mastery reduced to 10%, down from 20%.

Grace: Your Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Heal, Power Word: Shield and Penance spells bless the target with Grace, increasing all healing received from the Priest by 10%. This effect will stack up to 3 times. Effect lasts 15 sec.

Train of Thought: when you heal with Greater Heal or Binding Heal, the cooldown of your Inner Focus is reduced by 5 sec.
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90 Human Priest
10380
Making a large number of changes in one hit to a class is something Blizzard have never quite got right... and it would be very tough to do.

More than SS, I think our mana regen from Rapture and the fact it allows us to just keep spamming PoH and therefore run DA up to over 150k on all players is the problem.

So I would simplify it all by doing just 2 things.. (and keeping the Rapture nerf)

1/ Reduce DA to have a ceiling of say... 50-60k. This puts it roughly on par with Holy's PoH and CoH combined on a single player... slightly under, allowing for the CD on CoH.

2/ Put SS on a 3 min CD, in line with Holys DH.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying but I think this would provide an appropriate nerf.
Edited by Bigbuffdaddy on 1/21/2013 4:11 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
Just to throw some of my own ideas in and a few ideas presented by others I think are good....

1. Split Holy PoH from Discipline PoH.

2. Implement their initial proposed SS change where mastery only boosts the DA of SS heals, but not the healing.

3. Lower base DA from 50% down to 10-20%.

4. Reduce mastery scaling from 2.5% per 600 stat points to ~2% per 600 stat points.

5. Reduce base mastery from 20% to 10%.

6. Give all direct healing abilities guaranteed DA.

7. Redesign Rapture so it applies a temporary spirit buff over X seconds.

8. Redesign HoH into a MTT clone.

9. Remove Grace.

10. Adjust/tweak numbers.
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90 Human Priest
17015
01/19/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Mahourai
Buff the healing on PoH and reduce the automatic shield component enough that non-crits won't stack it up much in a decent timeframe. Remove the temporary spirit buffs from Rapture. Reduce the effectiveness of Spirit Shell by 20%, however you want to accomplish that. Maybe some cost increases across the board.

Currently (on live), casting atonement heals at 5 stacks of evangelism is possible in the lowest of low spirit (I have an atonement set that has 6k spirit and haste/crit). The incentive to cast archangel is for a 25% boost in healing, but if all you're casting is evangelism builders anyways it's okay to stay at 5 stacks and try to maximize dps.

The ratios are shifting around. If PoH doesn't have the power it did, the incentive to maximize hps with sparingly using atonements isn't as prevalent. If the ratio of PoH shifts down as Penance shifts up, we'll be using atonement heals on not just low healing requirements, but high demand healing requirements as well.

Also, this has been a problem at low healing demand parts of fights for a while now. If archangel is to be something you opt in, why is it the absolute best method of single target tank and spot healing? It's pushing heal/fheal/gheal off the table, and even accounting for grace/aa/evangelism, the evangelism builders are doing more hps and hpm, while also doing dps.

And as for secondary stats, if you can stack crit/haste, that's a fun and varied gameplay. If you can do it at the expense of spirit and shift your hps and dps from 40% and 40% (of what a normal healer/dps is capable of) to 51% and 51%, that's a problem. The disc priest operating at those percents is now doing more overall comparatively to the rest of the raid, which makes the class susceptible to class stacking and encounter cheesing.

Also (a minor concern), this 'can' force mandatory glyph choice. For the purposed of optimizing an encounter, the current live model will have most of your fights running with holy fire and smite. Next patch, smite will still exist, holy fire will change. But that's still 1 of the 3 slots that's perma-filled. There is mathematical reasoning behind me declaring it 'mandatory'

There are lots of problems with atonement/evangelism spells being the default spells you fall back on. I personally think the best way to go about it is to force more thought into casting those spells by making it too mana penalizing to spam them. I also believe this doesn't kill the "maximize evangelism dps now" playstyle either, as you can still do that for part of an encounter. You just can't lay into it full time or risk ooming yourself. Also, with the new solace revision, it wouldn't be too penalizing to remove the mana portion on evangelism because of the mana savings from 0 cost holy fire and a 1% return.

After looking at some ratios of theoretical rotations over my spreadsheets after the PoH change, I'm just trying to nip this problem sooner rather than later.
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90 Human Priest
17015
Gmorning Vol, the current build for us is doing your number 2 suggestion. And you don't like Grace? Aw, I do. I still think Rapture should just be a fixed cost. If it was neutral in inner fire, and it returned mana in inner will, maybe inner will wouldn't be so forgotten this expansion.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
Also, this has been a problem at low healing demand parts of fights for a while now. If archangel is to be something you opt in, why is it the absolute best method of single target tank and spot healing? It's pushing heal/fheal/gheal off the table, and even accounting for grace/aa/evangelism, the evangelism builders are doing more hps and hpm, while also doing dps.

It's not really pushing them off the table. They were already off the table.

There are lots of problems with atonement/evangelism spells being the default spells you fall back on. I personally think the best way to go about it is to force more thought into casting those spells by making it too mana penalizing to spam them.

That puts us right back where we were before the Atonement buffs, when Disc didn't have an acceptable way to heal people who didn't have Grace.

If you want the single-target direct heals back in play outside of pure tank healing, you have to start by making them not quite so incredibly awful. They're as bad as Holy's in Sanctuary (literally, the numbers are the same, and I'm being generous by pretending that random DA procs have the same value for raidhealing as consistent EoL.) Actually, Disc Flash Heal is worse than Holy's in Sanc.

Inside of pure tank healing, we have slightly different issues. If I recall correctly, Smite on a non-Grace target is lower HPS than GHeal on a Grace target and lower HPM than Heal on a Grace target, but the balance between the two (and the fact that it does DPS and stacks AA) makes Smite a better choice overall. That's because Heal's HPS and GHeal's HPM are total crap compared to specs with good tank healing kits.
Edited by Kaels on 1/21/2013 6:26 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
If you want the single-target direct heals back in play outside of pure tank healing, you have to start by making them not quite so incredibly awful. They're as bad as Holy's in Sanctuary (literally, the numbers are the same, and I'm being generous by pretending that random DA procs have the same value for raidhealing as consistent EoL.) Actually, Disc Flash Heal is worse than Holy's in Sanc.


This is why I think they should get away from the DA from critical strikes concept entirely.

At the moment the one thing that separates PoH is the guaranteed DA. This combined with the fact it's 50% guaranteed, with mastery on top of that 50% DA, is what makes PoH overpowered. It's also what makes everything else comparatively underpowered. It's what is responsible for spamming PoH. It really needs to be one or the other. Every ability that isn't a pure absorb needs to come with or without guaranteed DA.

As I said before if they have such a huge problem with the heavy reliance on PoH they need to stop making it the best option in 99% of situations. Removing the guaranteed DA on the spell is one way to bring it down. I'd prefer it if they just brought down the DA bonus and gave us something similar to Holy Paladin mastery though. As it gets us away from this terrible concept of relying on critical strikes for the mastery bonus and it doesn't the mastery.

This would bring PoH down a notch but bring everything else up a notch, including Discipline single-target healing.

01/21/2013 04:27 AMPosted by Twistedmind
And you don't like Grace? Aw, I do.


No, I don't and have never liked Grace. It makes Discipline single-target healing too limited and it's an archaic design. The spec already has enough short cool-downs and buffs to manage. We don't need Grace for Discipline to feel engaging at all. I can't count how many times I've thought to throw out a GH to spot heal but didn't because it's slow, not very efficient and not even all that powerful without Grace.
Edited by Volios on 1/21/2013 9:11 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
If they find our DPS is too high, they could easily adjust Atonement. Smite/HF/Penance now deal 50% damage but their healing through Atonement is now doubled. Completely arbitrary numbers but you get the idea.

I as well hate Grace and feels it's an archaic mechanic. I completely ignore it to be honest. It doesn't give me incentive to Single Target, it just makes me feel like crap if I do and they weren't Graced already.
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90 Worgen Priest
9630


I as well hate Grace and feels it's an archaic mechanic. I completely ignore it to be honest. It doesn't give me incentive to Single Target, it just makes me feel like crap if I do and they weren't Graced already.


Same. I used to keep grace on both tanks at all times. Once I realized how powerful atonement was, I completely dropped this tactic because offense penance > defensive. Feels stronger and heals for more. Sure, I'll use it on a tank now and then if I feel the tank is in some danger of dying, but that's really a rarity. This will probably change next patch... maybe.

We have a lot to manage, as someone stated above, and grace is just going overboard. It's good if you're not focusing on smite healing, but then I just feel like it's gimpy if you're not taking advantage of it's offensive abilities.

Meh... I don't even like atonement healing (don't hate me, it feels too easy to just spam HF, smite, smite, smite, penance) but it's more effective. :P
Edited by Fluffychoo on 1/21/2013 9:55 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7815
The patch notes I want for priests in 5.2:
lots of good ideas

I loved them :D
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