How would YOU gone about to Nerf Disc?

90 Pandaren Priest
12725
01/21/2013 09:46 AMPosted by Fluffychoo
Same. I used to keep grace on both tanks at all times. Once I realized how powerful atonement was, I completely dropped this tactic because offense penance > defensive. Feels stronger and heals for more. Sure, I'll use it on a tank now and then if I feel the tank is in some danger of dying, but that's really a rarity. This will probably change next patch... maybe.


Well, the interesting thing about penance is it has a lower base heal but higher spellpower coefficient when used offensively. With the spellpower people are currently running around with it actually makes sense to use it offensively unless you want grace on someone.

The reason I hate grace is because it feels like an unnecessary limitation. It adds to the list of reasons to spam PoH because our single-target heals are really rather weak in comparison even when grace is up. Whenever you're in a situation where you want to heal a single-target without grace on them it feels pointless. Hell, in many situations it feels pointless even if you do have grace on the person.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Well, the interesting thing about penance is it has a lower base heal but higher spellpower coefficient when used offensively. With the spellpower people are currently running around with it actually makes sense to use it offensively unless you want grace on someone.

The reason I hate grace is because it feels like an unnecessary limitation. It adds to the list of reasons to spam PoH because our single-target heals are really rather weak in comparison even when grace is up. Whenever you're in a situation where you want to heal a single-target without grace on them it feels pointless. Hell, in many situations it feels pointless even if you do have grace on the person.


This very much sums up my issues with Grace, and my feelings about Penance most of the time.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13945
Well, the interesting thing about penance is it has a lower base heal but higher spellpower coefficient when used offensively. With the spellpower people are currently running around with it actually makes sense to use it offensively unless you want grace on someone.

The reason I hate grace is because it feels like an unnecessary limitation. It adds to the list of reasons to spam PoH because our single-target heals are really rather weak in comparison even when grace is up. Whenever you're in a situation where you want to heal a single-target without grace on them it feels pointless. Hell, in many situations it feels pointless even if you do have grace on the person.


This very much sums up my issues with Grace, and my feelings about Penance most of the time.

Thirded. I haven't liked Grace since I met it. It needs to die. (It's one of the many reasons I prefer not to play Disc if I can avoid it.)
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90 Human Priest
11345
Could turn it into a healing buff on targets with weakened soul.

Would also fit with their goal of making priests use pw:s more.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13945
01/21/2013 01:10 PMPosted by Amabella
Could turn it into a healing buff on targets with weakened soul.

No, that creates almost exactly the same problem.

Sometimes we need to heal people who aren't in any sort of critical danger, who don't need to be shielded, or healed 3 times in a row, or have half their health dumped into them first by our 10-second CD. Sometimes we just need to heal several people, scattered around the raid, who are at 60% health for no particular reason.

We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to be able to do that at some reasonable level of efficiency.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Why exactly do you need to heal people at 60% health immediately who aren't in danger of taking future damage? Do damage and let atonement heal them - that's what it's there for.

In situations where people were actually in danger of dying, or during periods of sustained damage you'd be more likely to cast pw:s.

Grace isn't a great mechanic, sure. I forget who or in what thread - maybe it was even you - made the analogy to chakra, but it seems like an intended mechanic to make us have to choose between powering up single target and aoe healing. The problem right now is that aoe healing is way way better in basically all situations (thanks for infinity buffs to PoH blizz). It should be possible to buff grace in some way that will make us consider using single target heals again.
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100 Night Elf Druid
15530
01/21/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Kaels
We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to be able to do that at some reasonable level of efficiency.


Waiting for Sensations to come in here and say "that's your weakness" blah blah blah.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13945
01/21/2013 01:59 PMPosted by Amabella
Why exactly do you need to heal people at 60% health immediately who aren't in danger of taking future damage? Do damage and let atonement heal them - that's what it's there for.

Well, the complaint Twistedmind brought up (it was what started this conversation, wasn't it? or was it in another thread?) was that the single-target heals have been sidelined because Atonement is better. My point was that if we're supposed to use single-target heals off the tank, then they need to not suck...and Grace is a problem there. Nerfing atonement like he suggested wouldn't suddenly make the heals not suck.

Being able to apply Grace with PWS wouldn't make a difference, because most of the time we might consider direct-healing a non-tank, we don't also need to shield them. (There are rare circumstances where a single non-tank gets hammered with an ability, but I can count the fights that applied to over the last two expansions on one hand.)

As far as getting us to use them on the tank, I'm not sure changing the way that Grace is applied would do much. The problem there is that Atonement heals are arguably better than direct heals most of the time even assuming Grace is up. (Exceptions apply. Please see game for details.)

If that were not the case, then we'd be healing the tank, and so Grace would be up, and making it easier to get it up in the first place would mostly only help with tank switches.
Edited by Kaels on 1/21/2013 2:24 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
Single target heals have been terrible hps/hpm since dragon soul. Maybe earlier, but I wasn't playing the game in early cata and was a paladin / warrior in previous expansions, so I don't really know specifics.

If you want to remove grace entirely and buff the single target heals + penance + holy fire (but not smite) that would be reasonable, although it would probably cause us to keep 4 piece t14 forever. I'm already worried that the 20% buff to penance may get it nerfed.

I guess it depends what the design intent of grace is - I tend to view it as a way to strengthen our tank healing so I'm not too upset about not having it on random raid members. I don't think slow single target raid heals really have a place in the game anymore, so even if you did remove grace and slightly buff gheal I don't think I'd suddenly start using it to heal up random raid damage. If we are going to keep it as a mechanic though, it'd be nice if it buffed pw:s at least (and make pw:s give a stack if it isn't responsible for the whole mechanic so you can at least use it to refresh) - it would help make us want to keep it up on the tank in more than situations of potential extreme tank burst.
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90 Human Priest
11345
01/21/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Kaels
Well, the complaint Twistedmind brought up (it was what started this conversation, wasn't it? or was it in another thread?)


I've lost track of who said what in what thread since there's so many threads about 5.2 disc.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13945
01/21/2013 02:47 PMPosted by Amabella
Well, the complaint Twistedmind brought up (it was what started this conversation, wasn't it? or was it in another thread?)


I've lost track of who said what in what thread since there's so many threads about 5.2 disc.

I know, right? can we just pick one and make it a megathread?
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100 Human Priest
15685
Not sure how I would have done it. Might have nerfed the impact mastery had on it. As far as prayer of healing goes, I hate that spell the way it is anyways. It never hits who I want it to hit. I have to arrange groups for it to hit the entire group that I'm casting it on. For example I need all melees and ranged together so the prayer of healing actually hits everyone in the group. I'm not sure how much impact their changes are even going to have on my game to be honest.

I should get on the PTR, but the raids aren't available for me to test at the moment.
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90 Human Priest
17065
Well if you line the 'problems' with disc right now you can pretty much distil it down to a few issues. Or rather, 'reasons why non discs are crying hard'.

Major Issues

1) Infinite Mana from Rapture + spirit term spirit buffs

2) POH with DA is controllable, stackabke and rollable (whether from buff mech or buff duration) and thus, combined with infinite mana, you have 25priests can roll them forever with POH for absorbs and absorbs only.

3) Spirit Shell by itself provides a controllable, predictable, massive raid absorb that trivialize the popular 'raid spike' mechanic. While mastery scaling inflates the numbers absorb, I personally think the issue is more of the root mechanic of the spell.

Minor, debatable issues

1) POH is being spammed because outside of T6 long-CD spells, a disc priest has nothing else to effectively raid heal - this is more glaring in a 25 setting than 10

2) Grace is clunky.

So basically, come up with something that a) nixes the above 'abusable' mechanics, b) keeping the while mitigation and absorption thing as a feature of a disc priest and c) without buffing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13945
01/21/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Amabella
Single target heals have been terrible hps/hpm since dragon soul. Maybe earlier, but I wasn't playing the game in early cata and was a paladin / warrior in previous expansions, so I don't really know specifics.

Well, they were actually pretty decent throughout Cata (including DS) if you ignored the fact that just closing your eyes and mashing PoH until the boss died was more useful than anything you could ever do with a single-target heal. (Except on Baleroc.)

Tanks didn't really take damage in Cata, except on Baleroc. But in an imaginary universe where they did take damage, Disc single-target would've rocked.

As for Wrath, everything in Disc's spellbook other than PWS was pathetic, so the single-target heals weren't really an exception.

01/21/2013 02:44 PMPosted by Amabella
I guess it depends what the design intent of grace is - I tend to view it as a way to strengthen our tank healing so I'm not too upset about not having it on random raid members.

The problem is that it doesn't really strengthen Disc tank healing so much as it brings it up to an acceptable level.

Disc single-target heals start out with almost exactly the same numbers as Holy's in Chakra: Sanctuary. (Tank healing is the one circumstance where the random DA procs really are about as useful as Holy's consistent EoL.) Then Grace buffs them 30%, compared to Chakra: Serenity's 25%, so they're 4% ahead of Holy.

But then Holy has 40% uptime 25% crit, for an additional 10% overall buff, so Holy pulls ahead again.

Disc has Penance every 10 seconds, while Holy has HW: Serenity every 15, which is weaker, so Disc catches up again and we're even.

Then Holy has constant 25% buffed free Renew, while Disc has free PWS every 16 seconds - you can probably value those about equally, so they're still even.

So basically, with Grace, Disc non-Atonement tank healing is roughly on par with Holy tank healing. Holy is not, shall we say say, queen of the tank healers.

So just like Chakra, Grace doesn't pull you ahead of other healers - it just keeps them from leaving you in the dust. I, for one, don't like having to jump through hoops to be adequate.
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90 Human Priest
17065
I really think they just need to change how DA works - how you can roll it, how you can stack DA on top of more DA (so you can DA while you DA...) , and keep it up forever until some damage comes along at no huge expense of your own...I don't think that should be. PUlling it off of POH and latching it to crit just feels like you're cutting your arm off to heal a finger cut.

Absorbs needs to be predictable and controllable for it to be effective. Problem with 5.1 disc right now is that the numbers are too strong. We just need to tone back the numbers - or rather how the numbers rack up/stack up/be rolled, to pull disc back, not change the parameters and make them controllable and unpredictable -_-
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90 Human Priest
11345
I saw an interesting idea posted that was something along the lines of making any new applications of PoH-DA cause the existing DA to "bloom" for the remaining absorb amount as healing. That'd be a pretty good way to nerf aegis rolling as you'd be wasting the previous aegis by spamming on people at 100%.

I don't think removing divine aegis from PoH is necessarily a bad thing as long as the numbers work out and mastery gets some sort of buff / redesign.
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100 Human Priest
19420
Hey, I know proclaiming that I like grace is a rift in opinions, but my justification is that it makes single target healing 'feel' more proactive. Layering in heals in advance, or 'wasting' your penance for grace stacking still feels like a chore for me sometimes, but I appreciate the difference in being proactive with my heals = reward instead of being locked into a forced rotation = reward (like either of healing classes being tethered to an alternate resource).

(I'm going to break these next posts up for the ease of reading)
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100 Human Priest
19420
I also don't know how tank healing isn't taking up a significant demand of your attention if you're pushing heroic 10 mans. I'll admit that at this ilevel, I can get away with the PoH spam play that we're all doing, but when I first set foot into raids this tier at an average ilevel of 459, along with 9 friends also at a similar ilevel, I had to do a lot of tank management. We kind of got gear that cheesed the tank babysitting for a while, but I personally ran into a tank healing wall again on the heroic will of the emperor fight. I have a full page on my spreadsheet illustrating our first attempts on that fight, and theoretical rotations of me trying to burst 100k-120k hps every ~40 seconds to keep them alive without ooming over 12 minutes. God forbid they get hit with the debuff. In the end, I just switched places with the shaman co-healer and did raid heals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9bMWfcnz34

I don't know what that says about some 10 mans compared to other 10 mans. Maybe without a holy pally I'm assuming more responsibility with tank healing? It just seems like most priests don't take big tank damage very seriously, and that's justifiable in higher ilevel gear. But you have to beat your raid against harder and harder progression content to get that gear, and that's kind of where I look at it mathematically. But ignoring grace makes me scratch my head. I ignore it on some fights, but it's the secret trick to win others.

And off the record, I personally feel that if we're struggling with keeping the raid alive with aoe healing, we're probably not coordinating raid cooldowns well enough. If we're up against a fight with more than average tank damage, total raid survivability drops pretty dramatically, but that's a 10's thing.
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100 Human Priest
19420
But I guess where I'm coming from with this proposed mana nerf to Evangelism is coming after looking over a couple of numbers sims playing up evangelism vs. strength of soul vs. train of thought vs. divine insight for single target now that penance is buffed. These following figures scale slightly differently, but it would take a big change in spellpower to see it. They are using 6265 mastery which might be a little high for next patch given our changing preference to stat weights, but the deltas aren't as big as one would think.

Some single theoretical single target numbers at higher gear in healing per second:
5x evangelism atonement: 57,229
heal + strength of soul: 55,421
train of thought gheals + strength of soul: 102,318
fheals + strength of soul: 117,958
from darkness comes light + strength of soul (heal spam for procs): 63,258
divine insight + strength of soul: 69,119
divine insight + atonement: 88,434

Those might look swell, but the hps of atonement is the way it is, plus it will being doing close to the same dps. And this would be fine, because it's an alternative playstyle that can fit random spotty damage better. But the big disparity in these theoretical rotations is their healing per mana. Evangelism at 5 stacks takes the cake for that, and you're supposed to be (this is my opinion, and a reflection of my opinion after seeing how blizzard handled monk eminence) building stacks for archangel, not sitting on them for mana purposes.

If the healing per mana changes this much out of sync from what it was, these alternatives (that are on fairly close to tuned on live) will fall by the wayside because atonement will just be better.

This problem is arising because of the single scaling up of one ability (penance) without modifications to others. The last change that was made like this was to prayer of healing and prayer of mending. So that's why I'm eyeballing the mana cost reduction of Evangelism as a possible solution. It forces a playstyle change, but it isn't the only way of addressing this issue.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16700
Spirit Shell no longer benefiting from mastery sounds and feels utterly ridiculous.
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