T15 Ret Bonuses

90 Blood Elf Paladin
8240
Paladin T15 Retribution 2P Bonus: Your Exorcism causes your target to take 6% increased Holy damage from your attacks for 6 sec.

Paladin T15 Retribution 4P Bonus: Your Crusader Strike has a 40% chance to make your next Templar’s Verdict deal all Holy damage.

The 4set.....brb changing pants.

This proc will probably cause us to value Crusader Strike above Exorcism at all times now. Maybe even Hammer of Wrath, but that might be a stretch.
Edited by Pyraedine on 1/10/2013 11:32 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Not sure on putting Exo above CS; since the Exo CD is so long, and it'll be giving increased Holy damage, I still think Exo > CS because the Holy converted TV from CS will benefit from the Exo buff.

The 4p, though, makes me think HA will be supreme. I'm at 16% with a 3.8s CS; T15 should put us close to (if not at) that 3s CS, so CS -> TV would get ridiculous with lucky CS procs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
20550
Would this make Holy Avenger more likable?

You got the 6% holy damage from exo and then inq up with that. Considering spamming CS every other TV and if you get lucky procs it can do major damage.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9495
Holy Avenger & Mastery stacking maybe?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15495
It'll most definitely make mastery when used with holy avenger more appealing for burstiness in PvP.

I can't see it topping haste for sustained damage though; makes sense that a lower GCD on your main abilities should provide a higher damage increase.
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90 Human Paladin
13010
i think haste might still win. faster CS= more chances at the 40% holy TV
the more censure ticks in the 6 second window and shorter CD on exo
(from a pve view)

don't see how that set will change pvp tho o.0 as you would be disadvantaging yourself with the loss of pvp power and risil

what i am wondering about is will that 6%(from the 2pc in conjunction with inq) put DS above TV single target (when tv doesnt have the 4pc proc)
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90 Human Paladin
9970
DS is significantly more than 6% short of TV for single target, so I doubt it.

I'm... kind of not seeing why either set bonus particularly favors HA? I'm not sure if I'm missing something or Grognard is. With a 40% proc from CS, the limiting factor is how many CS you can pump out, not how many TVs, and HA doesn't let you do more CS, nor does it improve the proc-amplified TV hits.
Edited by Ravicana on 1/10/2013 12:37 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
10125
I think it's because you spend less time HoW'ing and more time CSing, as well as more TV's mixed in (around 2'ish over SW, off the top of my head). CS/TV alternating for 18 seconds, 1ish second GCD, 9 TV's, approximately 4 at 100%+ holy damage on average.

HOWEVER!

It gets complicated when you factor in that our 2 piece bonus only lasts for 6 seconds, keeping it up during HA (assuming you get the procs for it) will take away 1 to 3 chances for the 4 piece to kick in. We also lose both our CD reduction on wings (also pushing us towards HA) and our 15% straight up damage boost to TV (more than made up for by the 4 piece of t15, I *think*) by switching tiers.
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90 Human Paladin
10930
I'm just glad I wasn't wearing any pants when I read the bonuses.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
We can't just alternate CS-TV at any plausible amount of haste, though. We'd need a 2s CS to do that, which is well over 100% haste.

I'm not saying HA is going to be a BAD talent with t15 4p, I just don't see how the set bonus particularly favors it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
I think it's because you spend less time HoW'ing and more time CSing, as well as more TV's mixed in (around 2'ish over SW, off the top of my head). CS/TV alternating for 18 seconds, 1ish second GCD, 9 TV's, approximately 4 at 100%+ holy damage on average.

HOWEVER!

It gets complicated when you factor in that our 2 piece bonus only lasts for 6 seconds, keeping it up during HA (assuming you get the procs for it) will take away 1 to 3 chances for the 4 piece to kick in. We also lose both our CD reduction on wings (also pushing us towards HA) and our 15% straight up damage boost to TV (more than made up for by the 4 piece of t15, I *think*) by switching tiers.


In which world do you live in where your CS has a 2 second CD? I'd like to be there too.

I'd think that SW would favor the new 4pc more - you will get more CS-TV combos under SW than under normal wings. But I'll work on getting them implemented in SimC (probably not going to be simple, I'll have to figure out how to work the changing spell school on TV) over the weekend.

The t15 4pc will boost the dmg of each TV it affects by something like 86%. 1/.7(no longer affected by armor)*1.3(now affected by Inq). At a 40% chance off CS it'll affect roughly 40% of our TVs looking at my simc T14H profile #s. So avg 35% increase to TV dmg overall. Note that these #s may be skewed somewhat by current 4pc in the sim.

The t15 2pc will have roughly a 70% uptime based on that same SimC profile. 70% uptime of 6% more holy dmg (about 66% of the dmg for that profile) would be an increase of about 2.5% dmg. Including the extra 4% holy dmg from TV conversions with 4pc only makes that go up to about 3%.

So, 4pc, good. 2pc, ok. Similar to current 2pc/4pc.
Edited by Balhale on 1/10/2013 3:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
The 4pc could actually be even better than that depending on how we end up prioritizing CS. CS will almost certainly be worth using over J durings wings/execute and potentially over Exo as well, though that is less likely.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9540
I'm kind of wondering if the 4p will make using tv pre 5 HP better if it procs. Normally you don't because you don't want to waste a GCD where you could be using an HP builder, but assuming the CS proc doesn't stack charges, you may waste possible procs while building to 5 HP if you use CS at all.
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90 Human Paladin
10845
Im hoping for a really awesome animation for Templar's verdict when the 4 piece proccs
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90 Human Paladin
13010
thanks rav fully had a memory blank on DS strength single target and just thought why it was superior vs two forgetting to half it lol
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90 Draenei Paladin
17770
I think i gotto balance out haste and mastery for T15...
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
We can't just alternate CS-TV at any plausible amount of haste, though. We'd need a 2s CS to do that, which is well over 100% haste.

I'm not saying HA is going to be a BAD talent with t15 4p, I just don't see how the set bonus particularly favors it.


Does it really still take 50% haste to reduce the CS CD (and the global) by ~33% base? If so, I'll admit that I could well be wrong in my assumption.

But, consider: even if we can only get CS down as far as 3.4s and the GCD to, let's say, about 1.3s, a single CS>TV chain would take 2.6s which would leave us with 0.8s left on CS. As we're already delaying certain abilities by partial globals, it's possible CS would fall into that category during HA - though we'd need some of the heavy mathers to really crunch it and confirm or debunk.

Though, in thinking about it a bit more, I can see how SW would still be powerful; HoW > CS > HoW > TV would still work out well, I'd think, and that may push mastery's value up - not likely to the point of beating haste, but it may truly trump crit since that entire rotation would proc HoL.

Toss up right now, I guess, until the math's done.
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I am just sad cause ret will be more RNG.

WE DONT LIKE RNG BLIZ, YOU HEAR US?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6990
So, is our 2 piece horrible or am I overreacting?

6% increased holy damage even with a 50% up time doesn't seem like a lot, and when compared to our current 2 piece it seems pretty bad.

Please, someone convince me it isn't as bad as I think it is.
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Holy damage bypasses armor.
Exo with my gear at least is around 12 secs cd. Include procs, should be around 70% uptime.

Set bonus is sweat, just not as good as some other and RNG
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