Is Ret really that bad?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
6645
Exordus.. -
Pictures of a score board from a random bg is not a good indication of rets prowess or viability in competitive rated play. PERIOD.
When put into a scenario where your vsing equally geared and skilled only then do you get a true indication of rets shortcomings as a 'viable' spec.
Running around in a random bg smashing people in blues and greens, half of which are bots.. Like I said does not mean ret is powerful.

Agin -
either way you didn't earn that rating.
Not to mention there's a large flaw in your story..
First of all, your low mmr would have brought the teams mmr down, admittedly if 9/10 were 2300-2400 then your low mmr wouldn't have dropped the teams mmr by a substantial amount but still..
Secondly you had a gain of 500 points in 5 wins and 1 loss as you claim..
The flaw in that is the higher your rating got closer to the teams mmr.. The less points you would have received per win. While possible.. It's doubtfull.
Lastly, i was in a guild full of 2.2k players on frostmourne and I am now in a guild of ex R1 players, R1 players alts, glads and many 2200 players..
I have also run rbgs at 2-2.1k mmr.. The simple truth is,you would have been vsing other teams that were 2200-2400 mmr and at that rating, 1 weak link at that mmr is a loss.

Cadinbrie - while it's possible, tho extremely unlikely, his statistics don't lie;
370 rbgs played for 200 rbg wins and his highest rating was 1700.
All of a sudden in 1 nights he's gone from 1700-2200..
If perhaps a T2 arena master player got that achievement.. I wouldn't question it..
For a 1500 arena player and a 1700 rbg player..
Highly unlikely.

Invincible -
You sure you want me to do you next? :P
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10600

Frost DK? if a ret loses to a frost dk ever they should just uninstall.


You beat them by kiting them right?


Doesn't make a difference win is a win. Kiting or not it's a game mechanic might aswell use it
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5110
3 stacks of Selfless healer saves lives sure.


Its getting nerfed. ):

Why? Holy.

"Lets make it a more viable choice for Holy" - Sure.
"Well, now its too viable" - NERF IT.

Now we cant even use 4 FoL in a row anymore (since with 3 stacks it will still cost 15%/9k of mana; resulting in 3 FoL consuming 90% of our mana), so only 3. Our off healing with it got even worse, 10% real reduction overall (considering 5.2 PvP power buff).

The PvP power buff wasnt really that good to begin with (slightly make up for the Battle Fatigue buff to 30% - if we compare to pre-5.1 15% reduction, its just a 2.9% increase in healing; we were still crippled back then), lets hope that Sword of Light changes make up for it and/or some of those changes got reversed throughout the PTR.

Anyone wondering:

Selfless Healer now boosts Flash of Light by 20/40/60% (down from 33/66/100%), and can be activated by Holy Shock (in addition to Judgment).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10600
Exordus.. -
Pictures of a score board from a random bg is not a good indication of rets prowess or viability in competitive rated play. PERIOD.
When put into a scenario where your vsing equally geared and skilled only then do you get a true indication of rets shortcomings as a 'viable' spec.
Running around in a random bg smashing people in blues and greens, half of which are bots.. Like I said does not mean ret is powerful.

Agin -
either way you didn't earn that rating.
Not to mention there's a large flaw in your story..
First of all, your low mmr would have brought the teams mmr down, admittedly if 9/10 were 2300-2400 then your low mmr wouldn't have dropped the teams mmr by a substantial amount but still..
Secondly you had a gain of 500 points in 5 wins and 1 loss as you claim..
The flaw in that is the higher your rating got closer to the teams mmr.. The less points you would have received per win. While possible.. It's doubtfull.
Lastly, i was in a guild full of 2.2k players on frostmourne and I am now in a guild of ex R1 players, R1 players alts, glads and many 2200 players..
I have also run rbgs at 2-2.1k mmr.. The simple truth is,you would have been vsing other teams that were 2200-2400 mmr and at that rating, 1 weak link at that mmr is a loss.

Cadinbrie - while it's possible, tho extremely unlikely, his statistics don't lie;
370 rbgs played for 200 rbg wins and his highest rating was 1700.
All of a sudden in 1 nights he's gone from 1700-2200..
If perhaps a T2 arena master player got that achievement.. I wouldn't question it..
For a 1500 arena player and a 1700 rbg player..
Highly unlikely.

Invincible -
You sure you want me to do you next? :P


Hey dude do you know how many bads i've seen hit 2k+ in RBGs? 2k in RBGs isn't really a great feat. I remember this warlock i used to talk to he was litterally the worst warlock in the world never broken 1500 in arenas barely even knows his own rotation, yet he was 2.1k RBGs When he hit that rating RBgs ratings don't mean jack to me anymore.
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90 Human Paladin
6090
Exordus.. -Pictures of a score board from a random bg is not a good indication of rets prowess or viability in competitive rated play. PERIOD.When put into a scenario where your vsing equally geared and skilled only then do you get a true indication of rets shortcomings as a 'viable' spec.Running around in a random bg smashing people in blues and greens, half of which are bots.. Like I said does not mean ret is powerful.

Fine, I'll post the millions of arenas I've done with my Feral friend who has equal gear to me. I'm (usually) at least 200k+ damage above her. And yes, she's good at Feral.

I'll say again, Ret is not bad.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
The PvP power buff wasnt really that good to begin with (slightly make up for the Battle Fatigue buff to 30% - if we compare to pre-5.1 15% reduction, its just a 2.9% increase in healing; we were still crippled back then), lets hope that Sword of Light changes make up for it and/or some of those changes got reversed throughout the PTR.

Anyone wondering:

Selfless Healer now boosts Flash of Light by 20/40/60% (down from 33/66/100%), and can be activated by Holy Shock (in addition to Judgment).


*cough*

May I add:

Sword of Light now reads +30% Word of Glory and +100% Flash of Light. We wanted to reward Flash of Light more, because it's harder and riskier to use.


They haven't updated the PTR build just yet to reflect that change, though should be soon. Net result will be that Selfless Healer has no real loss (may even be more powerful with the new change), and will be slightly weaker for Holy and Prot, who don't care because they've been using Sacred Shield or Eternal Flame anyway.

All in all, offhealing should feel a lot better now, especially with the PvP power change (which HAS been brought back in the latest PTR).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5110
They haven't updated the PTR build just yet to reflect that change, though should be soon. Net result will be that Selfless Healer has no real loss (may even be more powerful with the new change), and will be slightly weaker for Holy and Prot, who don't care because they've been using Sacred Shield or Eternal Flame anyway.

All in all, offhealing should feel a lot better now, especially with the PvP power change (which HAS been brought back in the latest PTR).


Yeah, I wasnt complete sure of what they would change on Sword of Light (since I didnt actually saw the blue post about it), but I was aware of it thats why I said "lets hope..". :P

Its a little nerf nevertheless, after all we would still need 0.6s to cast it and it will cost 15% of our mana, instead of instant and no-mana cost, because of how useful it would be for Holy. But oh well.. xD

I actually did suggest to buff Sword of Light to 100% in my topic (we would need around ~50% to 'remove' Battle Fatigue, then 30% * 50% = 95%, so I rounded it for 100%). And then to make FoL more useful, it would cost less mana instead of healing more, around 22%. Mana regen will also be reduced by around 30% (and so Emancipate, Cleanse, Seals and buff' cost) and FoL would be affected by haste. Mostly to make it more useful in a sustained manner (so its no 2 - wait 1s for mana regen to cast a third) and to prevent spam (5 in a row, then wait for mana regen). The result its practically the same then a separate 50% boost (4.5 FoL against 5; or 6 vs. 6 with SH 3 stacks in each scenario).

I also suggested that Holy Shock would proc its stack because of how difficult is to find yourself using Judgment all the time (specially in PvP), and to make it more balanced since having the 3 buffs scaling together would be too good, it would have them separately (cast reduction with 1 stack; mana cost reduction with 2; boost in offheal/cast reduction in selfheal with 3 - you would be able to demote to a previous rank).

Idk if it is a better solution than just nerfing SH and buffing FoL to ret to compensate (or a less complicated one), but..
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90 Human Paladin
4985
i have full malev and i just run into people stuck at 1700 rating in 3s because they wintraded in rbgs for their t2 gear and their GEAR is carrying them lol. nothings better than dying in 8 seconds by a arms warrior/bm hunter in FULL t2 ARMOR. arenas is broke
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I'll admit several classes are difficult to handle (locks and warriors are a handful), however ret is isn't as terrible as a lot of people seem to make it. You have to use your cds of course, but as Vanguardy says...DO NOT BLOW THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME. I'm not even in full malev and I find I don't do too terribly when I manage my abilities and use my brain.
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90 Tauren Paladin
13585
01/17/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Valazgorr
I personally think we ret pallys have no chance against ranged unless we are better geared than them. Magers, locks, and other ranged can easily get away from me and just down me quickly even though i blow up all cooldowns to get to them. Close up like dks, warr, etc we rets can beat. Damage from rets is amazing just like frost dks and arms warr. I think we rets are pretty deadly. But you have to know how to play one.


Ranged is a pain in the !@# unless you have a pillar to hump and force them to close the gap somehow. Unfortunately that's not always an option.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
01/17/2013 10:33 AMPosted by Syros
Its a little nerf nevertheless, after all we would still need 0.6s to cast it and it will cost 15% of our mana, instead of instant and no-mana cost, because of how useful it would be for Holy. But oh well.. xD


The patch notes say nothing about the cast time and mana cost, merely the effectiveness of Flash of Light.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5110
01/17/2013 08:16 PMPosted by Jackishi
The patch notes say nothing about the cast time and mana cost, merely the effectiveness of Flash of Light.


Since they just use the word "boost" (not particularly saying "off healing boost"), I assume they included both mana cost and cast time to be reduced. I still not confident though, are you sure?
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83 Blood Elf Paladin
14045
I think ret is pretty strong 1v1, but once that 2nd target is on you its pretty much game over.
Most classes are bringing double and triple the amount of CC as ret which is why its lacking.
Trade 30 sec on stun for a snare ( both should Be baseline abilities as melee)plus no true gap closer. Justice wouldnt be so bad if it wasnt eating 2gcd. A 1 minute hammer stun and 2minute ae blind are far to weak and long cd duration , most classes at level 50 have more cc then live ret.
Edited by Meganfoxadin on 1/17/2013 10:23 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
01/17/2013 09:10 PMPosted by Syros
The patch notes say nothing about the cast time and mana cost, merely the effectiveness of Flash of Light.


Since they just use the word "boost" (not particularly saying "off healing boost"), I assume they included both mana cost and cast time to be reduced. I still not confident though, are you sure?


Whoever wrote the patch notes made a lot of terrible typos and errors, however I think it's safe to assume they meant the healing effectiveness of Selfless Healer and not the mana/cast time. In GC's posts, he's only made mention of nerfing the healing power of Selfless Healer to compensate, anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6645
01/17/2013 02:30 AMPosted by Exordus
Exordus.. -Pictures of a score board from a random bg is not a good indication of rets prowess or viability in competitive rated play. PERIOD.When put into a scenario where your vsing equally geared and skilled only then do you get a true indication of rets shortcomings as a 'viable' spec.Running around in a random bg smashing people in blues and greens, half of which are bots.. Like I said does not mean ret is powerful.

Fine, I'll post the millions of arenas I've done with my Feral friend who has equal gear to me. I'm (usually) at least 200k+ damage above her. And yes, she's good at Feral.

I'll say again, Ret is not bad.


so your opinion of 'ret is fine' is based off you posting a picture of topping the charts in a random bg or telling us that you usually beat your 2s partner in dps by up to 200k..

other than 2s and random bgs, what else do you have to support 'ret is fine' ??

games not balanced around 2v2 hence the reason why they removed T2 from it.
Hopefully they do the same thing for RBGs.
Edited by Daemonism on 1/18/2013 5:16 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
11905
Agin - in my opinion you gave up your right to post in here when you paid to be carried/wintraded to 2200 in rbgs.
Hell, I'd be to embarrassed to post in forums.
Before you get defensive, lets face it.
Fact - you went from 1700-2.2k in 1 day. 13/1/2013
Fact - in over 125 rbg games you have only managed to get from 1600 achievement to 1700.
Fact - you have no other arena rating to prove you are worthy of 2200.
Fact - since 5.1 less rets are achieving 2200.
Fact - your achievements show that you achieved 1800&1900 at the same time from the same rbg win meaning you had a massive increase in mmr gain from the 1 rbg.
Fact - you have dropped from 2.2k - 2k in less then a week showing that your not an exceptional player.

Cheating is cheating, but spending real money on it is laughable, end of the day.. It didn't make you a better player.

Oh snap, I no all the usual excuses 'I just happened to join an awesome team' 'I have alot of high rated friends' ect. Well not many rbg groups will take a ret into them especially if they are high rated unless of course you are an incredible player which my friend, you are not.

Klareh - I'm sorry.. Ret is not fine in competitive rated play.
If your only a bg hero.. Then yes ret is fine, it's not hard to macro all your CDs, press 1 button then burst down players in greens and blues with ease.
If you want to rbg or arena competitively against equally skills and geared players, then you will truly see our shortcomings as a class spec.

Doctapurp - competitively, we are better than some but worse than most.
Our burst is good but easily countered.
Our sustained damage can be good if we can stay on target.. Not such an easy feat with the amount of cc in the game and rets not having any stun/fear protection or fear break.
Our utility is average, the reason I say average is all of it is dispellable or breakable. However if playing in a none competitive scene against retards, our utility can be awesome with clemency and selfless healer.
Our survivability sucks.. We have bubble which can be dispelled or shattered and is on a very long cd of 5min, our self healing is beyond weak, we have no passive damage reduction so in theory we are taking 100% damage at all times and as said before, we have no stun or fear protection/breaks so we'll tend to be cc'd the entire durations or taking a lot of damage before the damage threshold is reached.

Still, I find ret fun to play.. And will keep playing.


Damn you went full Schrute on him.
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