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I'd say it's more likely to have 3-5 holy fires per minute, depending on encounter. There is a reason I often say vacuum math is overvalued.
By the way, I direct you to the quote below. I had thought it was very obvious why Twisted used holy fire casts every 20 seconds for comparison purposes.
Your average holy fire (17.25 seconds) falls in line with the charts I made showing that even if you are between haste breakpoints with your pets, the new Solace is the superior regen choice. Nowhere did I say you should only cast an average of per ~20 seconds.
If you're normally casting holy fire anyway as Disc it would stand to reason mindbender would be more valuable from a DPS output perspective. Of course this is more of an assumption than anything.
For Holy I'd imagine the situation is different because holy fire isn't typically employed when healing as that spec. It would come down to the additional damage from the holy fires you aren't normally using vs the extra damage provided by taking mindbender.
I'm not sure how taking solace would be the optimal choice from a DPS output perspective for Discipline. I'm not sure Holy would take it regardless because of the reasons presented by Twisted.
This confuses me... Are you saying you're prioritizing other evangelism builders over holy fire in such situations?
I'd already label AA use mandatory in that having it up for heavier damage phases is optimal. Most encounters alternate between high and low periods of damage. Most t14 encounters have these highs on predictable, consistent timing. Since holy fire is one of your best, if not the best, evangelism stack builders I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it often as Disc.
All of this aside I'll say it again. I suspect these changes to solace are aimed at pvp. Previously your mana return in pvp was tied to a ccable pet (mindbender), a cast-time spell (solace) or an ability that requires procs from other cast-time spells (FDCL). Post 5.2 pvp healing Priests will have the option of taking an instant cast mana return ability.
This confuses me... Are you saying you're prioritizing other evangelism builders over holy fire in such situations?
If he plays anything like me, it's more like
0.00 - Use Holy Fire
6.5 seconds - use offensive Penance
9.0 seconds - POH
11.5 seconds - HF is available, but Weakened Soul just dropped so you gotta shield the tank; 14 seconds left on Eva
13.0 seconds - Now you have BT and you don't wanna waste it on HF, so cast GH/POH instead
15.0 seconds - Cascade just came off cooldown; 10 seconds left on Eva
16.5 seconds - Penance just came off cooldown -- you could use it to refresh Eva and ignore HF even longer; or use it on the tank
19.0 seconds - finally hit HF again, well after its cooldown, but plenty of time before Eva drops.
It's not that you're prioritizing other Eva builders, it's that other Eva builders exist, so it's not necessary to hit HF strictly on cooldown, and Disc is chaotic enough that it's not realistic to do so. 3ish HF per minute is more realistic.
Edited by Heartsings on 1/11/2013 10:26 PM PST
Very good write up Twisted, as always your numbers are interesting to look at.
I'm not quite surprised at the results, however. The developers have always prioritized effectiveness as random>active>passive, so something like the new Solace, as it requires far a far more active role in managing it compared to the relatively fire-and-forget nature of Mindbender, will naturally come out ahead in effectiveness if managed well, less so if managed poorly.
I think the jury's still out as to whether these numbers will stick, as I don't think anyone believes that Rapture is balanced and any change to Rapture would necessitate a change to these talents. Ideally these talents would increase in value and Rapture would decrease, but the team responsible for Discipline has shown a tendency for being lazy rather than ideal. Sorry blue-named folks, two years of shoddy roll-out speaks pretty loudly.
I still regret the lack of the signature Holy Fire graphic with this talent. There's just something about that pillar of holy lightning striking something that feels so visceral.
How Much Damage Power Word: Solace Does
I finally looked at some of the damage breakdowns for these spells. Here are some of the initial conditions (please correct if I'm overlooking something):
The formula for shadowfiend damage per swing: 2098.5 + spellpower = 1 swing
The formula for mindbender damage per swing: (2098.5 + spellpower) * 0.8 = 1 swing
The formula for holy fire: ([1002+(1.11*spellpower)] + [1271+(1.11*spellpower) ] / 2 = base damage
The formula for the holy fire dot portion: 57+(0.0312*spellpower) = one dot tick
Both Holy Fire and Shadow Pet melee attacks are spells, so all raid buffs and debuffs that modify spellpower and spelldamage will affect both.
Glancing blows will affect the pets. I verified that on the ptr, the chance to have a glancing blow is still 24%, and the average reduction in damage is 75% if a normal attack on raid bosses. I was able to also verify that the average damage reduction is still a range instead of a fixed value, so your pet's glancing blows will actually be 65%-85% of a normal attack. The modifier to account for this average is 0.94 * estimated damage from pets, but take it with a grain of salt because you could get really unlucky, or very lucky with the chance at a glancing blow and a chance at high or low glancing blow damage.
The value of haste has its on softcaps for shadow pet melee swings because of their ability Shadowcrawl. A pet will always spawn and cast this right away (giving a 15% increase to its damage for 5 seconds) and continue to cast it on cooldown every 6 seconds. This means that there will be points in the pet's damage where the 15% damage modifier doesn't happen, and most importantly, this 15% will never modify the first swing the pet does at it spawns. You cannot control losing the first hit, because the pet will always spawn next to the target, immediately swing, then cast shadowcrawl (all within the span of microseconds). What this means in english is your shadow pet damage will be doing about 3-4 (depending on haste) hits of 115% its normal value, and then one hit of its actual value without the shadowcrawl buff.
The holy fire dot also has its own breakpoints. These are 7.2%, 21.5%, 35.8%, and 50% for 8, 9, 10, 11 ticks. In terms of speaking with practicality, the first breakpoint is probably what you will be at regardless because it's hilariously easy to get 2.1% haste and then reach it with one of your raider's spell haste buff. The second breakpoint is probably not very easy to reach without sacrificing lots of other secondary stats to reach it. However, if you happen to offspec shadow, be mindful that 21.5% is the magic number for holy fire.
Critical strike rating means different things for holy fire and the pets because the pets use the melee value of crit on your character sheet, and holy fire uses the spell crit value. What this really means in english is the crit rating you get from Int will only affect holy fire/solace. Also a strange oversight cropped up from my tests which showed the shadow pets not getting the 3% crit bonus from the meta gem. Holy fire and Solace do properly use this 3% crit bonus.
To make sense of this all, I'm first going to:
show the difference in damage between shadowfiend and mindbender at our favorite breakpoints, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788?page=4#65
illustrate the potential time saved for dps by going from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds (before haste) as disc, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788?page=4#66
and then I'm going to show the total added damage per minute as holy (that you wouldn't normally be doing). http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788?page=4#67
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/13/2013 5:40 PM PST
Mindbender/Shadowfiend Damage Comparison
When looking at the pets, you have to break it down by the number of melee swings they are actually doing. At our favorite hast values, they are:
So to get the totals in damage, use the formula of: (number of swings) * (2098.5 + spellpower) * (0.94)
and do the same for mindbender, only multiply your end result by 0.8
What I have for that same chart from above, but at 20k, 25k, 30k, 35k spellpower:
Now remember, these did try to account for glancing blows, but they were averaged. And crit rating also isn't calculated in these above figures, so your actual numbers in combat will differ. What this chart does show is the difference in damage by a ratio. By looking at this we can conclude that Mindbender is a 293% to 330% boost in damage (depending on your haste) up from shadowfiend, assuming they are used on cooldown. Again, in an actual encounter, using these abilities perfectly on cooldown is unlikely.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/13/2013 4:46 PM PST
Disc Damage Comparison
We actually already found the increase in dps for disc earlier when looking at the increase in hps: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788?page=1#7
Some concerns and conclusions drawn from that link:
- The value of mastery from critical heals from atonements was factored into the hps calculations, the the numbers of damage in the example calculation is slightly lower, but the ratio of increased damage done after accounting for smites, and the instant cast nature of solace should be the same conclusion as the one listed.
- The amount of time saved can be used to see how much theoretical extra damage could have been done (this is looking at the table that shows saved time at differing haste values), but you also have to assume that you would fill that extra time doing damage. If you aren't casting smites or penances with that extra time, it isn't really an overall damage increase in your rotation. The extra one or two Smites will still not be more than Mindbender's damage (although it's closer than it is for holy).
- The actual damage done with your disc rotation has so many hidden variables, including using borrowed time to bump up your haste breakpoints for the holy fire dot, using twist of fate procs, using power infusion, lining up your pets with int procs (as well as evangelism builders), evangelism stacks falling off or staying on, luck with crits and glancing blows, and much more.
But arguably, you would be casting holy fire anyways as disc, which is where the cornerstone of where the bulk of my arguments are being made. Even without it being an instant, holy fire is still worth casting, but after reviewing the table I made for Mindbender and Shadowfiend, you should just know in the back of your mind that Mindbender is the talent you want for damage.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/13/2013 4:48 PM PST
Holy Damage Comparison
Now, holy normally wouldn't be casting holy fire, so each additional cast is going to be more damage. But the real question we should be asking is does this additional damage beat mindbender's damage gains? The above analysis didn't look at crit as a variable, so neither will this. But just know that crit from int rating will make a slight difference with your holy fires.
Anyways, we need to look at the same spellpower values from the pet comparison, and apply them to the base and dot value of holy fire, and then look at how many casts per minute we'd use. For all of the following, I'm using the first haste plateau of 7.14%. Also, to make it easier to compare to the table above, I'm multiplying all of the values by 3 so we can see how much damage they're doing over 3 minutes.
As you can see, adding these damage values to the ones we found earlier with shadowfiend does prove that taking Solace will be a boost to your damage (as much as ~30% when optimized). However, there is one glaring factor I'm overlooking here. Do you know what it is? Yep, Evangelism.
Your current count of Evangelism will greatly dictate the output of your Solaces. If you fail to keep any stacks, the above values are a decent measure of where you are. However, if you are skilled and can keep a rolling stack of 5 on your Evangelism, each listed value above is another 20% increase in damage. Here's a chart showing the same stuff as before, with five stacks of Evangelism:
So clearly, taking Solace and trying to us it will increase your damage done (as much as 50% more damage done). But that's not accounting for a lot of variables such as:
- Can you use your pets during Int procs or bloodlust?
- What is the actual value of your crit percent for both melee and spell? If you gear for it, the numbers above are closer to accurate. If you avoid crit on your gear, there is a greater distance between solace+sfiend and mindbender.
- Is there downtime during the encounter where your stacks of evangelism could fall off?
- How fast can you ramp up your Evangelism stacks? Do you start fights in chakra: chastise and do a pre-pot dps rotation to start?
- Are you good enough to hit solace within 20 seconds of the previous solace as to avoid dropping your evangelism stacks?
- How much healing is required for the current encounter? If the demands are high, the penalty for casting Solace instead of actual heals becomes a greater risk.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/13/2013 4:48 PM PST
So what we've learned is:
Mindbender does more damage than Shadowfiend, like ~300% more.
- As discipline, Mindbender does more damage. This is because the amount of damage gained from taking Mindbender vs. Shadowfiend is significantly more than the damage gained from going from a 2 second Holy Fire to a 1.5 second Power Word: Solace.
- As holy, taking and using Power Word: Solace is much more damage than taking mindbender. This can even be pushed for more damage depending on how many casts per minute you're able to cast solace, and how good you are at keeping up high stacks of Evangelism.
So this new information might get differing thoughts about this new talent. It also appears that the new talent does different things for holy and disc compared to mindbender if you're looking at this from a damage perspective. Though I keep saying "more" damage without actually saying how much more.
Using the 30k spellpower and the 12.5% haste modifiers (since that's what is closest to my actual gear), the damage of Solace+Mindbender not in chakra chastise is about going from mindbender's ~2k dps to ~3k dps, which is still hilariously low. This idea for Solace would be really cool if the ratio of outgoing damage versus outgoing healing was the same as disc, but that simply isn't the case for holy because the spec doesn't have Atonement.
If damage is actually a concern in your encounter, and your raid is looking at ways of finding more dps, the answer is simply go discipline (with the appropriate glyphs). This new talent is still a heirchy of:
Disc with Mindbender is doing 12 times the damage
Disc with Solace is doing 10 times the damage
Holy with Solace is doing 1 times the damage
Holy Mindbender isn't doing damage
Unfortunately, there is this goofy new problem popping up where holy is a viable dps spec on fights with no movement and tons of aoe (compared to shadow). This is a silly situation, but the GC tweet suggests that they are aware of the dps, but what they aren't okay with is chastise benefitting shadow spells (which I argue are a risky cast anyways as they aren't hitcapped). So if you are one of the silly priests arguing that Holy is a viable dps spec, if anything this analysis shows that you should be taking Power Word: Solace.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/14/2013 12:06 PM PST
Shadow spells are hitcapped in holy (and disc), regardless of stance. Divine Fury is a flat 15% hit to all offensive spells, even though the tooltip doesn't say so.
If I need to I can do some quick and maybe slightly insufficient tests on raid dummies for this (I can do it on a human, too, if the draenei racial would skew the numbers).
e: By 'slightly insufficient' I mean I'll test 100 direct hits of SW:P and 100 ticks of Mind Sear, which is kind of a small sample size but you'd be able to expect approx 15 misses of each.
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 1/15/2013 10:12 AM PST
I'm actually pretty excited about this proposed change to PW:Solace for Holy. A free filler heal that gives us mana back and a good tool to proc Twist of Fate (situationally), mmm.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/15/2013 12:04 PM PST
I was going to link that quote, lol. If it does healing similar to disc, it would fulfill that design intention as it would do damage but will still have lower overall hps (for holy).
Best thing to do now is to do some real testing on the ptr.
Do we think the purpose of the PTR is to test this stuff for any kind of balance? I'm asking because I can't tell you how many times I've been told by apologists for poor design that the PTR is only for catching major bugs.
It can serve to do both balance testing and bug testing. It's just more difficult to change things after they've been implemented and tested.
Something I didn't calculate (mostly because raid testing wasn't available yet) is the potential dead time from holding all dps. This comes up if something is threatening when it dies, or if a phase transition is pushed at a certain enemy health percentage.
Accounting for that won't change much in my conclusions that were being drawn. And I should clarify after doing practical testing of it, the discipline solace is outperforming from a mana and hps throughput perspective, but it isn't so broken that mindbender and fdcl aren't still viable options depending on situational things that will make solace weaker in an encounter.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/1/2013 11:06 PM PDT
This does a few things. For one, the math I have up on this post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788?page=1#7 is invalid because the cast time for holy fire is the same as solace.
Also for holy, it can be argued now that you should be trying to weave holy fires in between your heals or when you need to move, but the damage from it is still negligible: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592579788?page=4#67
And if damage is a concern, for both holy and disc, you should be taking mindbender as it's more damage than solace.
And I still stand by my opinion that the incentive to use holy fire for pve holy isn't really as appealing. There really needs to be an incentive to be using any dps spells as holy, and my suggestion was do something with evangelism. That could try to band-aid the red chakra problem (actually using it for something besides the pull and on gimmicks like heroic wind lord). But the change to making solace a smart heal for holy and having holy fire at the 1.5 sec baseline means that this talent and mindbender are "equal" in value depending on the encounter for both holy and discipline.
Edited by Twistedmind on 4/1/2013 11:05 PM PDT
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