Prot - Flask vs. Elixirs

100 Draenei Paladin
8035
Any thoughts on using Flask of the Earth vs. an Elixir of the Rapids and Mantid Elixir/Elixir of Mirrors?
Edited by Haldrin on 1/15/2013 7:51 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Paladin
8390
Last time I did the math, elixirs were cheaper. But that was back when golden lotus was relatively rare and leveling alchemists flooded the market with super cheap elixirs and potions. You'd have to wipe an absurd amount, like 20 times an hour, before elixirs would outweigh flasks in cost.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
8035
If gold is no issue (also I'm an alchemist), I was more concerned with the defensive aspects of the issue. Is the 1500 stam pretty necessary? or are the other bonuses from haste and armor or dodge a better choice for raiding?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
13390
Stam is only necessary if you plan on tanking hard content that has the potential to kill you, and in those situations, and extra what - 20k health? - can be a godsend.

If you're an alchemist, it's probably most like 25k. (I suck at napkin math.) It's a lot of health, and Paladins like having good health pools because your active mitigation has a ~40% uptime and you're heavily reliant on cooldowns... so if you die, it's likely to an unplanned damage spike that you and your healers didn't have time to react to.

Dodge in particularly is a really poor choice for a raiding Prot Paladin. Dodge on armor is just a little sticky note saying "REFORGE MEEEEEEEEEE". Armor is okay, 2-3k isn't a lot for a non-Druid though because of armor mechanics. The Haste is the main draw, but in reality, if you're doing reasonably difficult content you'll want at least some sort of Stam boost. You might as well get that from your flask.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
6700
Better off with a str flask in most if not all situations
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
13390
01/16/2013 11:24 PMPosted by Tirriara
Better off with a str flask in most if not all situations


Even ignoring Stamina's value as a health buffer, valuing 1000 Strength (flask) above 750 Haste (elixir) doesn't make a ton of sense. Add in the extra Dodge or Armor from whichever second elixir you're using and it makes even less sense.

I guess the Parry is okay, and it's convenient if you swap to Ret fairly often... Strength flasks are better than having no flask/elixir buff.

I'd still maintain that Stamina would be the wise choice for progression tanking where the boss is actually capable of killing you. If you're doing easier content, then you can use a Strength flask or Haste/whatever elixir, or you can just run without a flask for that matter.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
5405
The armor elixir itself is more defense than any flask. Throw in haste or mastery and elixirs blow flasks out of the water.

But still, it's only a few percentage points. I took alchemy for the extra armor from mantid elixirs to help survivability in Challenge Modes, but it proved unnecessary. The dangerous stuff is still dangerous at 97% potency, and the nondangerous stuff stays nondangerous. I found gearing for dps to be more beneficial for the group as a whole, and ending up going str flask again.

If the game were so tightly tuned that 2 or 3% average mitigation were significant, I'd say sure, but it ain't. The days of unavoidable/rng tank ganks are gone.

edit: Also, flasking/fooding for stam is utterly pointless. Doesn't reduce the damage you take; doesn't incease the damage you do. Str flask/food all the way.
Edited by Slalin on 1/17/2013 7:38 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
8035
Ok. So not much consensus, but I should have expected that with people at different junctures in their raiding progression and with different priorities. I understand that food buffs or elixirs may not make or break you by themselves, but if you are supposed to be gemming, enchanting and reforging correctly, why not be food buffing, flasking and taking advantage of profession perks correctly? And as my prof perks and flask/elixirs are directly related I want the most gain available.

So here's what I'm seeing:

*Stam Flask + Stam Food*
Pros:
-Higher HP pool allows for longer time for healers to react to massive damage intake
-Better for magic intensive fights that don't allow for much active mitigation
-Persists through death. Significant for wiping and if you get battle rez'd
Cons:
-Expensive (unless wiping 12+ times)
-Worthless if switching specs
-No actual damage mitigation or avoidance

*Strength Flask + Str Food*
Pros:
-More damage=More threat
-More damage= Boss dies faster, no more damage after they are dead :)
-More damage = More healing? (Not sure how significant this is, if anyone could give quick summary it would be appreciated)
-Great for switching to Ret (obviously terrible if switching to Holy)
-Avoidance from 27% gain to parry rating from str
-Persists through death. Significant for wiping and if you get battle rez'd
Cons:
-Expensive (though could reduce costs if you keep it on both specs and would otherwise be changing elixirs)
-Not much avoidance gained? (not sure how much parry rating would give and what it would amount to with how much parry your will already have).

*Mantid Elixir and Elixir of the Rapids (750 haste) and STR food*
Pros:
-More Armor reduces physical damage intake
-More haste increases damage output (how much less than straight strength? idk)
-More haste increases mitigation by reducing CDs for active mitigation, healing ticks, and shield procs
-Pretty cheap
Cons:
-Don't get the dps boost that STR flask gives to Ret, Or INT gives to Holy
-No stam boost
-No avoidance gain
-Must re-apply after all deaths, battle rez (one reason I wouldn't advise getting your hit/exp cap from these, but maybe I'm wrong)

Seems the dodge elixir was clearly not a good choice. Obviously the choice is ultimately mine and will be largely situational, but did I miss anything? Comments?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
01/17/2013 12:27 AMPosted by Tailias
Better off with a str flask in most if not all situations


Even ignoring Stamina's value as a health buffer, valuing 1000 Strength (flask) above 750 Haste (elixir) doesn't make a ton of sense. Add in the extra Dodge or Armor from whichever second elixir you're using and it makes even less sense.

I guess the Parry is okay, and it's convenient if you swap to Ret fairly often... Strength flasks are better than having no flask/elixir buff.

I'd still maintain that Stamina would be the wise choice for progression tanking where the boss is actually capable of killing you. If you're doing easier content, then you can use a Strength flask or Haste/whatever elixir, or you can just run without a flask for that matter.


1000 strength>750 haste in terms of damage, and honestly, if you're not doing hard content, the mitigation provided by the haste shouldn't even be necessary anyway. Just go with a strength flask if doing normals.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
13390
01/17/2013 07:24 AMPosted by Slalin
Also, flasking/fooding for stam is utterly pointless. Doesn't reduce the damage you take; doesn't incease the damage you do. Str flask/food all the way.


Total, total BS. (Okay, maybe not in challenge mode AoE fests.)

Reducing your damage intake is not your only job as a tank. You will inevitably take damage spikes as a tank, and having the health to survive them and give your healers a buffer to keep you alive is crucial. You WILL have windows with no SHoR or cooldowns up, regardless of your haste level or skill level, and you WILL take heavy damage during those times on some fights. Stam helps you survive those.

You may not want to stack tons of stam for 10 mans, especially not for normals, but arguing that a small amount of Parry and AP from Strength is superior to a fairly tremendous amount of health is pretty hilarious, all things considered.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
5405
1. Go try to simply AoE challenge modes, especially gold. See how that works.

2. Paladins can 5xBastion WoG to survive spikes. Or call for an external cooldown when they have none left.

3. The OP hasn't even killed a normal mode boss. Why are you nitpicking over 25m hardmode situations (where you have externals galore and probably aren't using them)?

edit; Also, OP, Str flasks give stronger sacred shield, more healing from WoG (especially with bastion), more healing from seal of Insight and Glyph of Battle Healer. These things are magic mitigation which no other flask/elixir provides (haste and mastery do some of them, but not all). Strength is good in every situation, on every boss.
Edited by Slalin on 1/17/2013 11:16 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
13390
It's not nitpicking. You're presenting "Hey, this is superior in challenge modes therefore it's always better" as a reasonable basis for an argument, which is blatantly false. I'm sure that gearing around your personal damage output and reducing damage via SS and healing via WoG is a great strategy for 5-mans due to the limitations of the content. That's not going to apply outside of those unusual scenarios.

Stamina is always a valuable stat, and you're not understanding. Strength gives attack power, yes. It's very quickly diluted by Vengeance, which you will have a lot of when you're tanking something besides 5-man bosses. Externals are good, Bastion of Glory is good, but guess what - they're not going to save you 100% of the time. Blame it on badness, blame it on whatever, but even people stepping into the raid content for the very first time have a good use for Stamina. In fact, if you're stepping into normal modes for the first time you're pretty likely to make mistakes and get a fair bit of mileage from it.

I'm not saying to stack it endlessly outside of 25 man heroic modes. In fact, I never once brought 25 man heroic modes into the argument, not sure where you pulled that from. I'm saying that it's a valuable stat to prevent spike deaths, and much more useful for raiding than the measly Parry and AP from Strength.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
10930
I almost exclusively use strength flasks now. Might try haste/mastery elixirs next raid to see how that goes.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
5405
It's not nitpicking. You're presenting "Hey, this is superior in challenge modes therefore it's always better" as a reasonable basis for an argument, which is blatantly false. I'm sure that gearing around your personal damage output and reducing damage via SS and healing via WoG is a great strategy for 5-mans due to the limitations of the content. That's not going to apply outside of those unusual scenarios.

Stamina is always a valuable stat, and you're not understanding. Strength gives attack power, yes. It's very quickly diluted by Vengeance, which you will have a lot of when you're tanking something besides 5-man bosses. Externals are good, Bastion of Glory is good, but guess what - they're not going to save you 100% of the time. Blame it on badness, blame it on whatever, but even people stepping into the raid content for the very first time have a good use for Stamina. In fact, if you're stepping into normal modes for the first time you're pretty likely to make mistakes and get a fair bit of mileage from it.

I'm not saying to stack it endlessly outside of 25 man heroic modes. In fact, I never once brought 25 man heroic modes into the argument, not sure where you pulled that from. I'm saying that it's a valuable stat to prevent spike deaths, and much more useful for raiding than the measly Parry and AP from Strength.


Stamina won't save you 100% of the time either, so I don't get what you are going for. If your tanks are regularly dipping into stamina flask range, your raid is doing something horribly wrong.

The damage in challenge modes is a lot higher than you think. Again, go do one. You can actually drop instantly inside one. In raids, that isn't going to happen outside a few very telegraphed mechanics. If elixirs don't make a significant difference there, they aren't going to make much difference in raids either.

It's more about using your buttons effectively, and str is more beneficial to those buttons than stamina is (which does nothing)
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
13390
01/17/2013 08:15 PMPosted by Slalin
It's more about using your buttons effectively, and str is more beneficial to those buttons than stamina is (which does nothing)


And this is blatantly incorrect, speaking as somebody who clears raid content. We're coming from vastly different perspectives, and the fact that you see *no* value in Stamina whatsoever implies that you haven't tanked anything particularly strenuous.

I mean, you may be right for the OP, you can use a Strength flask (or elixirs, or to be frank just run without a flask and do fine). If you want to min/max, go with a Stamina flask. Don't say this:

Also, flasking/fooding for stam is utterly pointless. Doesn't reduce the damage you take; doesn't incease the damage you do. Str flask/food all the way.


because it's hopelessly wrong.

You don't need to regularly dip into flask/food buff territory. You just need to get there once and not die. You would be surprised how often this can occur, and that this can save you from a wipe more often than a lucky parry or a tiny amount of extra SS absorb.

edit:

The damage in challenge modes is a lot higher than you think. Again, go do one. You can actually drop instantly inside one. In raids, that isn't going to happen outside a few very telegraphed mechanics


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that challenge mode 5-mans are comparable to progression raiding. I personally have no real interest in "raiding" 5-man content, but I have plenty of guildmates and friends who have gotten gold in all of them and are very progressed raiders. Guess which one they universally agree is more challenging?

Stop trying to apply your 5-man techniques across the board. Challenge modes are a unique circumstance, not something that applies everywhere.
Edited by Tailias on 1/17/2013 9:11 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6815
Stam flasks expensive? It costs me like 80-90g for a 3 hour raid night...
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
5405
It's more about using your buttons effectively, and str is more beneficial to those buttons than stamina is (which does nothing)


And this is blatantly incorrect, speaking as somebody who clears raid content. We're coming from vastly different perspectives, and the fact that you see *no* value in Stamina whatsoever implies that you haven't tanked anything particularly strenuous.

I mean, you may be right for the OP, you can use a Strength flask (or elixirs, or to be frank just run without a flask and do fine). If you want to min/max, go with a Stamina flask. Don't say this:

Also, flasking/fooding for stam is utterly pointless. Doesn't reduce the damage you take; doesn't incease the damage you do. Str flask/food all the way.


because it's hopelessly wrong.

You don't need to regularly dip into flask/food buff territory. You just need to get there once and not die. You would be surprised how often this can occur, and that this can save you from a wipe more often than a lucky parry or a tiny amount of extra SS absorb.

edit:

The damage in challenge modes is a lot higher than you think. Again, go do one. You can actually drop instantly inside one. In raids, that isn't going to happen outside a few very telegraphed mechanics


You seem to be under the mistaken impression that challenge mode 5-mans are comparable to progression raiding. I personally have no real interest in "raiding" 5-man content, but I have plenty of guildmates and friends who have gotten gold in all of them and are very progressed raiders. Guess which one they universally agree is more challenging?

Stop trying to apply your 5-man techniques across the board. Challenge modes are a unique circumstance, not something that applies everywhere.


I'll take the prot paladin in this thread on the same content as you using the str flask over some nebulous friends of yours.

Especially when neither of the tanks in your own guild are prioritizing stamina. (Your guardian druid takes 80 stats over 300 stamina even. Strongly suggests stamina isn't the issue)
Edited by Slalin on 1/18/2013 12:26 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6815


And this is blatantly incorrect, speaking as somebody who clears raid content. We're coming from vastly different perspectives, and the fact that you see *no* value in Stamina whatsoever implies that you haven't tanked anything particularly strenuous.

I mean, you may be right for the OP, you can use a Strength flask (or elixirs, or to be frank just run without a flask and do fine). If you want to min/max, go with a Stamina flask. Don't say this:



because it's hopelessly wrong.

You don't need to regularly dip into flask/food buff territory. You just need to get there once and not die. You would be surprised how often this can occur, and that this can save you from a wipe more often than a lucky parry or a tiny amount of extra SS absorb.

edit:



You seem to be under the mistaken impression that challenge mode 5-mans are comparable to progression raiding. I personally have no real interest in "raiding" 5-man content, but I have plenty of guildmates and friends who have gotten gold in all of them and are very progressed raiders. Guess which one they universally agree is more challenging?

Stop trying to apply your 5-man techniques across the board. Challenge modes are a unique circumstance, not something that applies everywhere.


I'll take the prot paladin in this thread on the same content as you using the str flask over some nebulous friends of yours.

Especially when neither of the tanks in your own guild are prioritizing stamina. (Your guardian druid takes 80 stats over 300 stamina even. Strongly suggests stamina isn't the issue)


Druids get armor and dodge and health out of stats. All of them are stats that they like to have lots of. As for the other tank, if you had looked carefully, their other heroic raid geared tank is a blood DK, who DOES prioritize stamina/mastery.

Paladins naturally have more armor(shield users), we hate dodge, and 80 stamina versus 300 stamina is quite an obvious difference.

Stop trying to apply other classes gearing strategies to Paladins. I'm 2 bosses behind him in progression, and both myself AND our warrior tank prioritize stamina over anything else.

Challenge modes are a joke compared to heroic raiding. Don't even try to say they're the same.

Talk out of your !@# to your guildmates all you want, just don't try to in front of other experienced paladins.
Edited by Paladîn on 1/18/2013 12:49 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
5405
The dk is prioritizing mastery. The only place he's going for stamina is where there is no comparable mastery option (LW bracer enchant).

All I've said is there are places in challenge modes where you'll drop instantly and the choice of consumable doesn't matter for survivability. I've never said they are comparable to heroic raiding as a whole. CM's are more gimmicky than anything else, but there are definitely pulls that will dwarf the damage/spikes of heroic raiding.

And who needs a guild? Proudmoore is already pugging H MV...if I cared to tank anymore I could get caught up in no time. Raiding is a joke.

edit: Thank thee oh internet gods for all you have provided

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kq2avfvumqilg9aw/details/16/

That guardian druid flasks for agi, not stamina

OOOPS

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kq2avfvumqilg9aw/details/14/

The dk flasked for stam once, strength once

edit2: Doesn't look like Tailias uses Hand of Sacrifice, nor any of the other paladins (:sigh:)
Edited by Slalin on 1/18/2013 2:44 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6815
The dk is prioritizing mastery. The only place he's going for stamina is where there is no comparable mastery option (LW bracer enchant).

All I've said is there are places in challenge modes where you'll drop instantly and the choice of consumable doesn't matter for survivability. I've never said they are comparable to heroic raiding as a whole. CM's are more gimmicky than anything else, but there are definitely pulls that will dwarf the damage/spikes of heroic raiding.

And who needs a guild? Proudmoore is already pugging H MV...if I cared to tank anymore I could get caught up in no time. Raiding is a joke.

edit: Thank thee oh internet gods for all you have provided

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kq2avfvumqilg9aw/details/16/

That guardian druid flasks for agi, not stamina

OOOPS

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kq2avfvumqilg9aw/details/14/

The dk flasked for stam once, strength once


edit2: Doesn't look like Tailias uses Hand of Sacrifice, nor any of the other paladins (:sigh:)


Again, druids gain 2 important stats out of agility versus stam. DK's gain parry, which is one of their largest mitigation tools.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]