Disc priests have been gutted, please explain

90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
More or less.

The Atonement range, PoM, Cascade, and AA + SS buffs were good and needed.


But you see, Tibberia disagrees that those buffs should have been given.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/19/2013 09:20 AMPosted by Taymage
But you see, Tibberia disagrees that those buffs should have been given.


Tiberria thinks a lot of things that are only true in his head. Like that Holy Paladins weren't going to be viable this expansion.

The IF+AA+SS changes needed to happen, cooldowns not impacting other cooldowns would be the same as Divine Favor doing nothing while Holy Avenger is active or something stupid like that.

Atonement range also *needed* to be increased. Spot healing Hunter pets was not the most useful ability. I'll admit that the PoH/DA buffs combined were absolutely overkill, but they only buffed DA to 50% because of PvP reasons.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
Totally agree with all of that Qùess.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/19/2013 09:29 AMPosted by Qùess
Atonement range also *needed* to be increased. Spot healing Hunter pets was not the most useful ability. I'll admit that the PoH/DA buffs combined were absolutely overkill, but they only buffed DA to 50% because of PvP reasons.


Which still makes little to no sense. When was the last time DA saved someone in PvP? Seriously? Burst damage is high enough that it tears right through a DA.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
01/19/2013 10:53 AMPosted by Tiriél
Atonement range also *needed* to be increased. Spot healing Hunter pets was not the most useful ability. I'll admit that the PoH/DA buffs combined were absolutely overkill, but they only buffed DA to 50% because of PvP reasons.


Which still makes little to no sense. When was the last time DA saved someone in PvP? Seriously? Burst damage is high enough that it tears right through a DA.

Well, not only that, but, last I checked, it's dispellable, spell-stealable, and doesn't proc reliably from any spell used in PvP aside from Inner Focus Flash/Greater Heal.

If I wanted to target a change to PvP Disc, I think DA would be about the last place I'd look. Start with...Flash Heal, probably. Or Renew. Maybe tinker with what PoM does when it has nobody to jump to. Or when it heals the casting priest.

Actually, you could use that (changing spells' effect when they heal the priest) to make a targeted PvP change to just about any spell. Would have some bleedover into PvE survivability, but all PvP changes do, and survivability isn't usually a gamechanger for PvE healers.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
Please explain? Okay. It's because disc, when it was buffed, was completely blown out of the water.

You seriously cannot defend the state of disc priests
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Please explain? Okay. It's because disc, when it was buffed, was completely blown out of the water.

You seriously cannot defend the state of disc priests


Read the rest of the thread first please. :)
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
Please explain? Okay. It's because disc, when it was buffed, was completely blown out of the water.

You seriously cannot defend the state of disc priests


Read the rest of the thread first please. :)


I did.

That having been said, the shaman made an accurate response to the OP. Nowhere in the OP was there any sort of recognition that the current state of discipline is ridiculously overpowered compared to all other healing specs across all raid sizes and difficulty levels. Or even any acknowledgement that some nerfing was deserved.

There was just the thread title claiming disc has been gutted, a listing of two nerfs, and the comment that he is glad he has alts. No evidence to support his claim that the nerfs are too large, the spec is unplayable, etc etc, just an attention-grabbing whiney headline and a don't nerf me bro post.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I did.

That having been said, the shaman made an accurate response to the OP. Nowhere in the OP was there any sort of recognition that the current state of discipline is ridiculously overpowered compared to all other healing specs across all raid sizes and difficulty levels. Or even any acknowledgement that some nerfing was deserved.

There was just the thread title claiming disc has been gutted, a listing of two nerfs, and the comment that he is glad he has alts. No evidence to support his claim that the nerfs are too large, the spec is unplayable, etc etc, just an attention-grabbing whiney headline and a don't nerf me bro post.


Sure. Although, I'm quite sure you didn't like having your chosen spec nerfed, either. So I'm sure you have been there.

With that said, there's a lot of other conversation on this thread. It's not all about the OP, and it would be nice to have people respond to the rest of the thread instead of freaking out at the OP.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
11630
Please explain? Okay. It's because disc, when it was buffed, was completely blown out of the water.

You seriously cannot defend the state of disc priests


Disc was overbuffed. No one is denying that. However, that does not make the answer nerfing them back down to pre-buff levels (where we were woefully behind all other healers) and refusing to fix the glaring mechanical issues with the class. A nerf/buff cycle where you're either a clear first or dead last is not good balance - thats just sloppy, heavy handed design.
Edited by Niia on 1/19/2013 3:40 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
I think people are jumping the gun when they proclaim we'll be dead last after the nerfs go live. I'll be doing some testing this week, but what I've heard from priests already on the PTR points to Disc continuing to be a strong asset when raiding.

While hyperbole can be a useful tool occasionally when trying to make a point or draw attention to your argument, it can also detract from what's being said. It makes a person sound less credible and, when paired with inaccurate information, can turn the reader off completely and you risk being ignored or brushed off as overreacting. When your goal is to get developers to listen and consider what you're saying, that can be devastating.

This is why many players advocate against using terms like "gutted" or "ruined," and why comments like "I'm glad I have alts" are met with raised eyebrows. It's not that we don't sympathize, or that we don't sometimes feel like tossing our hands up in frustration and letting loose a ripe string of fury. We simply know that it won't help the situation.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
People's antipathy towards being dead last is pretty amusing. I mean SOMEBODY has to be last. Why should it never be you?
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100 Night Elf Druid
17135
01/19/2013 03:37 PMPosted by Niia
Disc was overbuffed. No one is denying that. However, that does not make the answer nerfing them back down to pre-buff levels (where we were woefully behind all other healers) and refusing to fix the glaring mechanical issues with the class. A nerf/buff cycle where you're either a clear first or dead last is not good balance - thats just sloppy, heavy handed design.


Exactly this. But, we all need to focus on what the real problem is. Ghostcrawler and the crew seem not to be able to balance the classes. Constant buff/nerf cycles and a hotfix every other day is just not acceptable and extremely frustrating. When mop released, monks were OP by almost 25%. When 5.1 hit, priests just switched places with monks. I mean how hard is it to bring the numbers to within 5% between classes??

So either

a. the dev team is overworked
b. the game is not balanceable
c. the dev team is incompetent

Which is it Blizz?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/19/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Mahourai
People's antipathy towards being dead last is pretty amusing. I mean SOMEBODY has to be last. Why should it never be you?


Says a Mage. :)
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/19/2013 05:04 PMPosted by Mahourai
People's antipathy towards being dead last is pretty amusing. I mean SOMEBODY has to be last. Why should it never be you?


Well, there is a difference between being last and being dead last—at least if we're talking connotatively. If everyone is just about equal and someone falls just below the rest, that's usually fine. Dead last, however, runs with the implication that the disparity is much larger.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
01/19/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Elethia
Well, there is a difference between being last and being dead last—at least if we're talking connotatively. If everyone is just about equal and someone falls just below the rest, that's usually fine. Dead last, however, runs with the implication that the disparity is much larger.


Well of course, but "dead last" is likely hyperbole rather than a reflection of reality.

Says a Mage. :)


Says a Discipline priest, obviously.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/19/2013 05:57 PMPosted by Mahourai
Well of course, but "dead last" is likely hyperbole rather than a reflection of reality.


Oh certainly, and there are absolutely people who worry excessively about being last regardless of how far behind they find themselves. I was simply pointing out that antipathy toward being "dead last" makes sense.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
01/19/2013 05:27 PMPosted by Elethia
People's antipathy towards being dead last is pretty amusing. I mean SOMEBODY has to be last. Why should it never be you?


Well, there is a difference between being last and being dead last—at least if we're talking connotatively. If everyone is just about equal and someone falls just below the rest, that's usually fine. Dead last, however, runs with the implication that the disparity is much larger.


Pretty much this. In dps terms, being slightly behind isn't so terrible which is why a lot of people were wholly unsympathetic to the recent fire mge qq train. Yes, they were at the low end of the pack in certain statistical collections but they were within shouting distance of the field. OTOH you have stupidity such as the current position of marks hunters, a true example of "dead last".

Healing balance is a much harder issue because it can't really be just about the raw numbers because healing doesn't work that way. Having 120k hps by keeping 5k ish per person in a 25 man may rock the meters but it isn't going to keep your tank (or anyone else depending on the damage patterns) from becoming a pile of goo. It also doen't account for things that don't show up in the logs such as damge reduction cooldowns, tank saves, and the like.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
13605

So either

a. the dev team is overworked
b. the game is not balanceable
c. the dev team is incompetent


B. I would think this would be obvious by now. As long as different classes are different, there will always be unbalance. And even if you had every healing spec within 5% or so (assuming you could decide on what circumstances you were measuring), fights/tiers are different enough that what happens in-game isn't ever going to be perfectly representational of the "true" class balance. Even if you feel that you have achieved a "balanced" point, a new tier with new encounters, gear scaling, etc. just throws it out of whack again.

This isn't to say that you shouldn't try, or that Blizzard can't do better (they will always agree that they can improve), but it is pretty obvious that (especially in the realm of healing) "true balance" isn't possible.
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90 Human Paladin
14385
Discipline won't be head and shoulders better than holy for most fights, so it's been gutted? Ok.
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