Suggestions to a new/revamped Talent Tree

90 Blood Elf Paladin
5110
Hey guys! My first thread! Yay.

So, I have see some topics over this entire forum that people were talking about talent trees for "pure" classes, that together with the new specialization system kinda make individual specs scarcely unique. And I agree. One of the things that grip me however was a comment saying how awesome is the hybrid talent trees that made them use other specs abilities, like healing or protection skills/passives. And we all know, its not the case for our class. So I have some ideas to change Paladin talent tree. Most of them will be just on the talents, making them better for every spec or just plain better if they are plain bad. Some of them will be a little over the top and will require testing and some will be completely different. And one of the most important things, most of them I will be trying to distinguish based on the spec, which we only have Sanctified Wrath for that.

So, lets begin! My english is bad and its a lot late here though, so, dont be mad at me, it will be a *great* wall of *China* text!

  • Tier 1
  • The Problem: Although I think it really well design (3 different ways of doing the same thing), the talents are not suiting some specs. Like Long Arm of the Law (LAofL) being not so good for Holy since they dont use Judgment a lot without Selfless Healer. Or Pursuit of Justice not being good for Retribution because we are always using Holy Power (HP), or even Speed of Light since we dont need so much "running the hell out of that place" skills.

    The Solution:

    Retribution:
      Speed of Light
    - Lesser CD (30s) so we can use it for closing gap between enemies, maybe even a immunity to slow/snares as well. Need to change.

      Long Arm of the Law
    - Should be the same.

      Pursuit of Justice
    - 20% base speed, 3.33% for every HP up to 3. It is still the same speed boost as before (30%), but now it will depend less on HP. It can even be 25% and then 1,67% by each HP. Definitely need to change.

    Holy:
      Speed of Light
    - Since they will be using to run away, maybe just a faster sprint (100%). I was even thinking about it making you immune to charge/death grip as well (but on a longer 1min cd) or just a blink (after all it is called speed of light) and immune to charge/death grip will be nice. The effect could be called "Space-time Warp" (you know.. xD). Dont really need to change. *I know that the name its just a reference to our "alignment*

      Long Arm of the Law
    - Proc with Holy Shock (can share its proc cd with Judgment; or just a limit to 6s - both HS/Judge CD), since, again, they wouldnt be using Judgment a lot. Need to change.

      Pursuit of Justice
    - Should stay the same. Its good for Hpally since they dont need to burn their HP all the time asap.

    Protection:
      Speed of Light
    - Longer, but slower effect (50%, 15s), same cd. Mainly because they will be need a good longer mobility to aggro mobs and such (right?). Dont really need to change.

      Long Arm of the Law
    - Again, maybe a longer but slower effect. Same reason as above. Dont really need to change.

      Pursuit of Justice
    - 25% base, 3% per HP up to 5 (so, 40%). Same reason as above. Dont really need to change.

  • Tier 2
  • The Problem: With all the changes in MoP, specially around cc capabilities, we just got the cold shoulder. We are still using hard cc skills from TBC, and we are still capped on soft cc. While I do think its wrong to add more of them, its simpler to do make our crowd control capabilities better than make them worse for every other spec.

    The Solution: Make the entire tier baseline. I know it sounds too much, but let me explain.

      Hammer of Justice
    - Should get a 30s cd with a 20yrd range. Like I said, compared to any other class we just fall behind (so many examples..). A 1min cd for HoJ its just too much, making FoJ almost mandatory for Retribution. Only for ret and prot (Holy sticks to the old HoJ with a longer range - maybe).

      Repentance
    - Also should be back for ret as it always was. No cast time, 45-60s cd. It still only useful for incapacitation, like it should, so I dont really see much problem of it being baseline (for ret and prot only - Holy only if it is the 1.5 cast, 15s cd version). Maybe 10s as well, since any damage could break it. And a bigger "DONT HIT ME" sign of it. Its just ironic how Divine Shield got shinier and bigger just to remember people to dispel it, while Repentance still has a "stun" animation (and yet any damage can break it, while fears that are more visible dont break it for the same logic and frozen traps/Ring of Frost are WAY more visible to be avoided).

      Burden of Guilt
    - Could just be a "fix" for Judgment, making it proc all seals instead of just the Seal of Truth. This even lets Holy out, since they dont have Seal of Justice. Although they can have Holy Shock proc'ing Seals, so they can get the Seal of Insight bonus sometimes (4% mana).

    New talents: I'm not really that creative but I come up with 3.

      Divine Will
    - Bliding Light and Repentance now has a slightly change of not breaking for damage. Fair, since fears that last for 8s have a big change of not breaking and Warrior can use theirs as a 8s stun (together with snare + that talent that root anyone snared).

      Seal of Righteous
    - Basically a Seal of Truth + Seal of Justice with a big damage/"super Censure".

      Holy Censure (such a bad name ><)
    - Causes Judgment/Exorcism/Hammer of Wrath to interrupt any spellcasting (and maybe a small chance of a blanket silence?), like Rebuke. Can even make them having a small chance to refresh Inquisition if the first bonus isnt enough. Or I can be a fear-breaker talent (which I think should be baseline anyway - on Hand of Freedom or Emancipate; or even a completely new spell).

  • Tier 3
  • The Problem: Not really a talent problem, but I would like to use them to buff our healing capabilities a little bit.

    The Solution: To start, Flash of Lights and Word of Glories/Eternal Flames (direct heal) should heal for 50/40% more, respectively. A buff to Sword of Light to 90-100% will solve this (since we need a ~45% buff to ignore Battle Fatigue and I think our heals outside of combat are decent enough). Making them less scale-able to avoid being too strong with Strenght buffs can make it even more balanced. 1.5s to cast a Flash of Light is too much for a DPS class and a big sign of "HEY EVERYCLASSINTHEGAME, SILENCE ME!", maybe making them scale with Haste as well? Or just reduce it to ~1s? Mana cost should also go down, almost 40% its ridiculous for such a small heal (making us to dependable on WoGs, that cost precious DPS). I was thinking of 22-23%, and reducing our mana regen by ~30-40%. So we can get a boost if we need (5x, 6x with SH; 2 more than now), but not in a sustainable manner.

    To the talents now!

      Selfless Healer
    - I was thinking in something to encourage people to use on friendlies targets instead of themselves without making them lose a instant, no mana-cost, Flash of Light.

    Retribution:

    The Problem: Its the best option today. It heals for almost 2x more than EF using 3 stacks (or almost 30% using 2 stacks - even after the 5.2 buff), so with the buff of FoL you would think it will become a way better option, right? The thing is, with a 1s cd and almost half of the previous mana 'price', the 35-70-100% less cast time/mana cost, will not be so much viable.

    And again, why not making some boost if its use in friendlies? Maybe make it procs a shield on yourself (since it kinda is much of Holy's focus right now; heals producing shields) to the amount healed on the target (not counting the overheal - since healing a friendly target with SH will already boost your FoL heal by 100%, so to avoid people using on targets with 100% just to get a shield that would worth 2x what he would had heal to himself) * a "selfless coefficient"? Like this: Amount healed / target health ratio + your health ratio (with a minimal of 0.4, to avoid the shield getting like 5M+ of absorption).

    The ratio would be: life percentage / 100 (so its not a percentage anymore, its a ratio!).

    Examples: Your FoL would heal 50k on yourself. With 3 SH stacks you would heal for 100% more on a friendly target, so that is 100k. If the target has 100% of life, you would overheal him with 100k and heal him for 0, so no shield. If the target has 300k of life and 350k max, you would produce a shield on yourself with: 50k / (target' life percentage / 100) + (your life percentage / 100). Now, lets just say that the target was with 250k of life (71%) and you with 100%. You will heal him for 100k, generating a shield with: 100k / 0,71 + 1 = 58k (still more than the 50k). If the target is at 10% and you 20%, it will generate a shield with: 100k / 0.4 (it cant get below a sum of 0.4; or 40%) = 250k. It can have different limits as well, and not even having the multiplier (which I dont even know if its possible to have).

    To avoid people using too much with 1 or just 2 stacks (since 0.66 or 0.33s of cast time its already good enough), just change multipliers to: 25%-60%-100% (or even less). And also reduce GDC of FoL if used with 3 stacks.

    Holy: The same mostly. Since the buff on the heals are on the ret-only passive Sword of Light (protection does have it too, doesnt it?), it wont affect Holy a lot. Just a little change, make Holy Shock proc the Selfless Healer stack as well, or at least a chance to. Using Judgment which serves no purpose on Holy its a little 'uncomfortable' rly (yes, I think it should just go). I was thinking of giving one boost at each, so no mana cost with 1 stack, no cast time with 2 and 100% off heal buff with 3; instead of both scaling to 100% with 1-2-3. You could "demote" each stack by right-clicking in it if you want a different bonus; since people will use it a lot with having it proc'ing with HS, I do think the 3 bonus may be a little too much.

    Protection: I dont see much purpose on a tank healing other people, so maybe the same as ret. Healing a little less but generating a bigger shield (can also have different multipliers, to avoid making only useful if the target its near death).

      Eternal Flame
    - Just some small changes to make it more viable for rets @PvP, and adding some differences to each spec.

    Retribution: Like I said, even with the buff it will get in 5.2 it is still a little behind SH in self heal, and got WAY behind on off heals (4x less healing). So, first, reduce its HoT time by 13-15s. Make it tick faster so it wont heal 30k per tick, maybe 1/s (its 2.7 or so). A 15% over the 100% one to the baseline healing (70 to 80k). A ~30% additional buff to self heal (80 to ~100k). Both to compensate mine FoL buff if you are wondering why. By raw numbers, you could get 3, 3-stacked FoL in the 30s period that you would get the full HoT from the present EF, 3x FoL still will heal for more than 90% of what the HoT will heal in 5.2 (60k x 70k) without the buffs, and ~25% more after it. With 2 stacks I can get up to 30% more than EF' HoT (5.2!).

    So a reduction by half on its HoT time will improve the heal itself by 100% (100k/15s selfheal; 80k/15s offheal). FoL numbers (2x in 15s) would be (60k/15s selfheal; 120k/15s offheal + shields), if we consider 2x EFs to compare with 4x, 2-stacked FoLs, it will be (120k/30s, 190k/30s + shields), while using 3 stacks will get to (95k/30s, 190k/30s + shields - see why the GDC bonus? I'm already counting the 70 to 60% reduction on the 2 stacked FoL), for 2x EFs will be (200k, 160k). Maybe it still needs some more changes to make it more balanced (13s?). And I do think some numbers are scaling too good though, but the main point is the lower HoT uptime and just a small self heal bonus, not the actual values.

    Holy: Just ~115% improvements baseline to counter SH.

    Protection: Less off heal, more self heal bonuses. So, a 30-50% less off heal and 30% more self heal? 10s HoT sounds good too, since the 30s uptime doesnt have much use if you are not Holy (to maintain the absorb shield from Mastery).

      Sacred Shield
    - Remove the initial 5-6s delay and make it gets bonus from Sword of Light. Maybe a little bit more damage absorption? After all its 5 shields that will absorb 1/5 of what? 80k if you are Holy and 60k from ret? If one its gone you will take damage until the other pop up. No spec differences rly, not everything need to have xD

  • Tier 4
  • To the most bland and non-sense talent tier so far, unfortunately.

    The Problem: Hand of Purity and Unbreakable Spirit are probably the worst talents in the game right now.

    The Solution: Well, I have a totally different idea of what Hand of Purity should be.

      Hand of Purity
    - I dont know if it can be done, but it should be a mass dispel. And when I say that, I dont mean an AoE dispel spell-like the one priest has, but a mass dispel. It would, temporary of course, dispel ALL targets and friendly buffs and debuffs. Even Well Fed effects and Blessings. They will all pop together later, with its duration lowered like the HoPu didnt do anything (so it will cut, for example, 80% of Divine Shield' uptime). It will also make them immune to any buffs/debuffs for its duration (snares, bleed, poisons, curses, etc.) with a probably exception of stuns and incapacitation effects. The player can still take damage and healing though, just not by over time skills.

    It can also have some different special abilities depending on the class (increase healing for Holy, maintain beneficial buffs/HoT for ret, reduce damage taken by ~30% for protection), and/or just a 1-2s immune to damage. Of course the cd will be at least 1min, which for a dispel-like spell is a lot already.

      Unbreakable Spirit
    - Should just affect more skills and with some different %. Divine Protection for example its just sitting there for no reason. Its 1min cd, how come someone use 50 HP in 30s? Even with Divine Shield I found it to be a lot, 50HP/150s, thats 1/3s! So if affects a lot of skills and with different multipliers, it will be a reasonable choice. Stop being lazy Blizzard!

      Clemency
    - Should stay the same. If Hand of Purity its too much, then Hand of Purity should be nerfed.

  • Tier 5
  • The Problem: Again, not really a problematic talent tier, but I will use it to improve our QoL mainly.

    The Solution: Holy Avenger: Higher uptime, 30s, higher cd (3min).

      Sanctified Wrath
    - An additional 10% increase in healing Avenging Wrath (for Holy - not really needed). Maybe something similar to ret if HA just pass it by a good margin (10% additional damage).

      Divine Purpose
    - Baseline for all specs. 10 or 15% of chance instead of 25%. Can be even 20% if only procs from damage by rets (i.e. Templar's Veredict only), 15% damage/healing for proc., and 20/10% for Holy healing/damage (Glyph of Harsh Words if you are wondering). And/or just limit it for some X times/minute, so it doesnt go out of limits.

    And finally,

  • Tier 6
  • The Problem: For lvl 90 talents with such high CDs, I really do think they should do a better job or be somewhat "special" (like Hunter' tier 6 talents).

    The Solution: Again, just some overall improvements and some more synergy with our resources.

      Holy Prism

    Retribution: Be affected by haste. If used on a friendly target for healing, it will do 30% more damage to enemies. An overall 15-20% improved damage/healing its also welcome, although not necessary if the haste reduction its already too good. And 50% more healing if used on yourself. Generates Holy Power if used directly on the target + targets healed; so up to 6 HP. It can have a chance of its happening, so say, 70% per strike? Should be affected by Holy Avenger.

    Holy: Can have some multipliers to help with healing or damaging depending on the situation. Like 50% more damage and healing if used on a target attacking you (not really needed). Also generates Holy Power and it is affected by HA (mostly this, since only Holy Shock that will get an advantage of HA right now - yes theres the AoE healing, but it doesnt heal that much for the amount of mana/cast time to be worth using in PvP or in a general case in PvE).

    Protection: It can go up to 10 targets (does more heal than damage though). Less chance of generating HP.

      Light's Hammer

    Retribution: Last 50% less time, but does 200% more damage (50% less total healing). Can also prevent players from using sprint bonuses or blink/heroic leap abilities and/or snares effects and/or even root if players comes too close to the hammer (if you throw on the player's foot for example). Have a chance of generating HP per strike. A little bigger radius, 15 yrd, also get affected by haste, faster ticks as well (~50% less time in between each strike).

    Holy: 100% more healing, 50% less damage. Snares/roots effects could be in. Chance of generating HP.

    Protection: 20yrd at least, last twice as long doing the same damage/healing (faster ticks as well), generates a lot of thread if close to the hammer. Can also have snares/roots effects to help with aggro management.

      Execution Sentence

    Retribution: 45s CD, 20% more damage (same damage/healing). Can slow down the player in the last tick, it will last 30% less time (final damage stays the same). The Hammer will explode in the last damage, doing an AoE damage/healing (the same for everyone in 5yrd radius; more damage than healing however). Another idea was to have a option to use the skill again to do the last big damage right away. Not really needed, although the second one sounds nice for PvP, sacrificing total damage for DPS.

    Holy: Kinda the same thing as ret, but the explosion could instead do more AoE healing than damage. Or again, the option to use it a second time to just drop it.

    Protection: Same as today, but shorter cd (30s) with lower damage (still more than half of what it is now); or the same as ret but with the same damage/healing on the explosion, instead of more damage than healing.

    So.. thats it! I doubt anyone will read that much (I dont even know if the forums accepts that much xD), but I will be glad if you do.

    Any suggestions on to change some %s, any theorycraft, any "more easy to read" tips, any grammar corrections or some ideas will be welcome, and I'll be open to discussion. I still need a substitute for Divine Purpose! ):

    Just remember, this is not a QQ thread, its a suggestion thread! I'm aware that blizz devs doesnt even come to class forums anymore to look for suggestions, but I just had to write everything down. xD
    Edited by Syros on 1/9/2013 2:02 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    13415
    01/06/2013 02:59 AMPosted by Syros
    Long Army of the Law


    !

    So many images coming to mind, many of them not suitable for a general audience.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    5110
    01/06/2013 03:28 AMPosted by Jackishi
    Long Army of the Law


    So many images coming to mind, many of them not suitable for a general audience.


    Well, "thank you" for the grammar correction. Any more thoughtful comments? xD
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Paladin
    9970
    I don't think having every talent work differently for every spec is a good idea. We have a few that do that, but when it's every talent I think it would become difficult to keep track of, and kind of pointless. "I'll swap to Speed of Light here, that will be useful because it... no wait, is that the Ret version or the Holy version?" A sprint on a short cooldown is already a useful ability for any spec; it doesn't need a complete revamp.

    And... frankly, so much of it is way over the top that it's hard to provide specific feedback.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    5110
    I don't think having every talent work differently for every spec is a good idea. We have a few that do that, but when it's every talent I think it would become difficult to keep track of, and kind of pointless. "I'll swap to Speed of Light here, that will be useful because it... no wait, is that the Ret version or the Holy version?" A sprint on a short cooldown is already a useful ability for any spec; it doesn't need a complete revamp.

    And... frankly, so much of it is way over the top that it's hard to provide specific feedback.


    Like I said its only ideas to make some talents more fittable for every spec. It doesnt need to be this way (didnt you see the "dont need to change" on a lot of changes?), I'm not aiming a gun to dev' head and demanding it to be done in the first place. And its not every, its just a few that could have a different effect; again, ideas. Having 3 completely different specs and only one talent that partially changes, its completely lazy and unthoughtful for the dev' part.

    The first tier itself, if you ask anyone who play as ret they would say the same thing. SoL doesnt provide enough of a good bonus, while having such a big cd, for an ability that has its most use in closing our gap to the target; we use too much HP to have a good use from PoJ; so LAotL became mandatory. It complete kills the purpose of having this oversimplified talent system in the first place, giving players choices to make their class more unique, while not overwhelming them with a such broad of options that really doesnt feel important (like it was in the past talent system).

    And difficult to keep track? Just change the description depending on which spec, or you know, make it like Sanctified Wrath? After all its just some % modifiers or a lower cooldown or a different skill triggering it in majority of the cases.

    And care to explain the "over the top" bit? Overcomplicated skills? OP talents? Like I said, just some wild ideas to make talents.. you know, useful? Or important again? Not just some piece of dust on top of the cake, I want some real cherries!
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Paladin
    9970
    01/06/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Syros
    Having 3 completely different specs and only one talent that partially changes, its completely lazy and unthoughtful for the dev' part.

    I don't think it's lazy; for the most part I think it is a good idea.
    01/06/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Syros
    The first tier itself, if you ask anyone who play as ret they would say the same thing. SoL doesnt provide enough of a good bonus, while having such a big cd, for an ability that has its most use in closing our gap to the target; we use too much HP to have a good use from PoJ; so LAotL became mandatory.

    I play Ret. Speed of Light is situationally useful; frankly it's my favorite in that tier even though PoJ is generally more useful. Pursuit of Justice is is not at all negated by the fact that we want to use HP; since we prioritize our builders until we reach 5HP, we quite often have some HP banked, and it provides a good bonus even with no HP. And LAotL is a fine talent as well, and gives you short-term control over your movement.
    All three choices are useful to any spec, and none clearly outstrips the others in all situations, and there's room for different players to have different subjective preferences. I think our first talent tier is a near-perfect example of what a talent tier should be.

    By "over the top" I mean overpowered and/or totally unnecessary for the function of the talent. Execution Sentence doesn't need an AoE explosion at the end; the whole point of the talent is that it's the strictly single-target choice. Holy Censure is an especially egregious offender here - attaching an interrupt to multiple ranged short-cooldown attacks is kinda unfair.

    I don't mean this as too harsh a criticism; you do have some interesting ideas. But much of it strikes me as complexity for complexity's sake.
    Edited by Ravicana on 1/6/2013 3:07 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    5110
    01/06/2013 03:06 PMPosted by Ravicana
    I don't think it's lazy; for the most part I think it is a good idea.


    It is lazy. If anything, our talent tree its lazy designed. Much of them its mandatory for certain specs, some has a clear winner yet still allowing for some changes, and the majority just feel rushed. Just compare to other classes' talent trees. We are probably not the worst or even plain bad, but it doesnt mean it cant be improved.

    I think our first talent tier is a near-perfect example of what a talent tier should be.


    I also think its how it should be, they are 3 completely different ways to do the same thing, which is great. The problem is that they arent fitted for every spec, I never saw a ret using SoL in a BG, NEVER; PoJ its even more useless because we will mainly be having only 15% increase movement speed, which in PvP considering that almost every spec has a lot of soft cc makes LAotL WAY better and mandatory. Its just wasted potential.

    In PvP you wont be farming HP until 5, and the whole point of farming it to 5 in the first place its ridiculous. We should prioritize using our HP generators over TV if they are out/near out of cds, not wait until 5 HP to use it. Inquisition always with 3, and in PvP we cant really chose to wait a few more seconds to heal ourselves, can we?

    By "over the top" I mean overpowered and/or totally unnecessary for the function of the talent. Execution Sentence doesn't need an AoE explosion at the end; the whole point of the talent is that it's the strictly single-target choice. Holy Censure is an especially egregious offender here - attaching an interrupt to multiple ranged short-cooldown attacks is kinda unfair.


    It was just some way to make it more useful for PvP, and a little bit more "special". ES is more used in PvP than SoL however, mainly because Holy Prism, although being the best in the tier for PvP by far (even for Holy), its not really that mandatory like LAotL is in its tier; and have a good use for burst in PvE. But I didnt really deep-think everything, it was just a way to make the damage better, even if you use it on yourself for heals (which I think its why some people use it for PvP). The point is ES its a DoT, just it, a DoT with poor damage for a 1min cd talent, nothing more. I'll just be glad if its CD got lowered to 40s or so. But ask yourself then, how many times do you see a Retribution using Light's Hammer? Or even a Holy in PvE?

    And unfair? Warrior have a AoE interrupt (and also pummel), and before the 5.1 nerf, they also had a range blanket silence when glyph'd (Heroic Throw); which only got nerfed because they already have like 43984398 cc, having a range blanket silence (pummel too was improved by the glyph) was just ridiculous. The effect on Judgment can have a chance or can only happens in X seconds (although we will be using it mainly to deal damage, not waiting 'till someone cast something to interrupt it; so the 6s CD is already good enough). Judgment also takes time to 'drop' and deals its damage/effect, its not completely instant, so it will require precise use.

    Other thing is, compare us to a Feral or a Arms warrior, or a DK. We have the worst uptime on the target by far than those classes on PvP, its much easier for a Rogue do a kick, or a warrior a pummel, or a DK the mind freeze, than for us with rebuke. And its a talent after all, not baseline.

    I don't mean this as too harsh a criticism; you do have some interesting ideas. But much of it strikes me as complexity for complexity's sake.


    To be honest, I dont really like to overcomplicate stuff, but like I said, we are a hybrid class. Its stupid how little our talents changes and how limited more than half of them are to X or Y or Z spec.

    And again, most of the changes I also did because of ret stats on PvP and a bit on PvE. Some of them I did to prevent thing for being OP (like the complicated formula for SH shields), some of them to just in case an another one is too strong/too weak. Its like "Here's 100 changes, see whats best and pick 10."
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Paladin
    9970
    01/07/2013 08:48 AMPosted by Syros
    But ask yourself then, how many times do you see a Retribution using Light's Hammer? Or even a Holy in PvE?

    Um... quite often?

    Light's Hammer is REALLY strong for AoE damage, and also healing. By its nature, it is a bad ability for PvP since it's AoE, stationary, and visually obvious. But for PvE it is frequently useful, and very powerful at what it does.

    This is kind of the problem I'm having with a lot of your suggestions; you have a very inaccurately narrow view of what is useful, and so you're suggesting massive buffs and complete revamps to stuff that already works well and is competitive with its alternatives.
    Edited by Ravicana on 1/7/2013 9:20 AM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    5110
    But ask yourself then, how many times do you see a Retribution using Light's Hammer? Or even a Holy in PvE?

    Um... quite often?

    Light's Hammer is REALLY strong for AoE damage, and also healing. By its nature, it is a bad ability for PvP since it's AoE, stationary, and visually obvious. But for PvE it is frequently useful, and very powerful at what it does.

    This is kind of the problem I'm having with a lot of your suggestions; you have a very inaccurately narrow view of what is useful, and so you're suggesting massive buffs and complete revamps to stuff that already works well and is competitive with its alternatives.


    Its too limited, thats my point. You cant use it in PvP for the reasons you said, and in PVE its only useful if there is a lot of trash/players, since it isnt limited to 5 targets like Holy Prism or single target like ES. I rarely sees someone (holy and specially ret) using in LFRs though, maybe in coordinate raiding you could see it more often for boosting AoE healing/trash damage, since players/tanks wouldnt be wandering around the whole place. Even then you will need like 7+ mobs to stay in there for 15+s, to make it better than Holy Prism.

    And even though, what massive 'buffs' did I suggest for LH that its outside of PvP? It last for 18s and deals X DPS, now for ret it would last 9s and do 2X DPS. Its the same total damage, with half the healing; it could even do a bigger total damage, since players will be more aware to it than mobs and that will be difficult to find 7p to stay in there for almost 10s. Its a nerf it anything if you dont consider the PvP changes or the small HP generation for a 1min cd ability. The same for the Holy version, just less damage, more healing; which is more important.

    I may have a narrow view though. I had played all 3 specs, but didnt spend much time on it. I admit that most of the changes were more oriented to Retribution and PvP, which I think its where our class its flawed. I didnt test anything for obvious reason, but I tried to make it as balanced as possible. Most of buffs were aimed to that.

    And I may be been using a lot the word "useless". Anything can have its use (although Light' Hammer for PvP its pretty awful), its more like "the other talents are mandatory - yet not OP" issue that bugs me. Playing as a ret, I only feel that just some of them can be actual useful. Majority just feels like, "eh, CS, Judge and Exo its on CD and I dont have enough HP to a TV, maybe I could use that 90lvl talent or ...? Oh, the ability is up, nvm.".
    Edited by Syros on 1/7/2013 6:30 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    5110
    I did some changes, mostly to focus on what is really needed or not; if anyone is interested (which I doubt since I'm being objective here and people around this forums only seems to like bashing each other and GC decisions ): ).

    I was thinking in some Seal changes as well, like, reducing its mana cost a little bit and removing its GDC. So we could change them more easily depending on the scenario (specially if Judgment starts to proc all seals).

    Having a passive RNG that could refresh Inquisition (or in some talent, e. g.: Unbreakable Spirit) its also welcome. We should have complexity focus on other aspects not on refreshing a mandatory buff every 30s.

    Being able to use Divine Protection, Divine Shield and all Hand while CC'd should be in too. DS can be use while stunned, but I think it is affected by silence effects.
    Edited by Syros on 1/9/2013 2:23 PM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    5110
    I was thinking in some Seal changes as well, like, reducing its mana cost a little bit and removing its GCD. So we could change them more easily depending on the scenario (specially if Judgment starts to proc all seals).


    I came up with this system (it would also cost less mana and be on its own GCD):

    Seal of Truth:
    Fills you with Holy Light, increasing your melee haste by 5%, increasing your damage by 5% and apply Censure to the target. (was: causing melee attacks *and Judgment* to deal 12% additional Holy damage)

    Censure:
    Deals (107 ( + 10% of SpellPower) * 5) (was 9.4%) additional Holy damage over 10 sec (was 15s). Stacks up to 5 times.

    Why: I think all Seals should be similar to SoI bonus, instead of a small damage increase in certain abilities (specially in PvP, where most of them requires melee range). The seal damage itself is around ~5% of our DPS in raids (the haste part doesnt need to be in; although I think Seals should be more important). Numbers can be different to match real data/simulations accordingly.

    Seal of Justice:
    Fills you with Holy Light, reducing the effectiveness of all effects which cause loss of control of your character by 10% and apply Light' Shackles to the target. (was: causing melee attacks to deal 16% additional Holy damage)

    Light' Shackles:
    Reduce the target's movement speed by 10% for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. (was 50% right away for 8s)

    Why: 2 main reasons; ret Paladins are too susceptible to hard cc, specially fears and to make SoJ more cc oriented (since it gives 16% weapon damage now). It can be different as well or more specific (like reduce the time and the chances of not breaking from fears by 20%).

    Seal of Insight:
    Fills you with Holy Light, increasing your casting speed by 5% (was 10%), improving healing spells by 10% (was 5%), increasing mana regeneration by 3% (didnt have this part) and apply Holy Pulse.

    Holy Pulse:
    Heals you (107 (+ 5% of SpellPower + 10% of Attack Power) * 5) over 10 sec. Stacks up to 5 times. (was: and giving melee attacks a chance to heal you for (0.15 * AP.15 * holy spell power) and restore 4% of base mana - thats why the 3% mana regen, it can be even lower)

    Why: The nerf for SoI not proc'ing by AoE abilities like HotR really hurt ret. If it is a HoT, is more easily balanced and we dont need to switch to it every time while doing dailies or PvPing; making it more strategical IMO (all the Seals actually, since you will need to manage the stacks).

    ALL direct damage would apply them (maybe some direct heals for Holy, specially on SoI), with the exception of melee and mastery damage.

    But most important:

    Judgment:
    A magic attack that unleashes the energy of a Seal to cause 623 (+ 54.6% of SpellPower) Holy damage (and now) and consumes 5 stacks of Censure to cause an additional 623 (+ 54.6% of Attack Power) or consumes 5 stacks of Light' Shackles to stuns the target for 4 sec - this effect can only happen every 30s, or consumes 5 stacks of Holy Pulse to heal 623 (+ 110% of Spell Power).

    Judgment would always have its CD reset when you reach 5 stacks of Censure/Light' Shackles/Holy Pulse and a buff would be applied that would last for the amount of Judgment CD (accordingly to your haste) to be able to consume the Seals' magical effects (to avoid people abusing the Judgment' CD reset and to make it possible to maintain the magical effects on the targets if you want).

    You would only consume the seal' magical effect if you are using that particularly Seal, so the effects itself should be listed on the Seal not on Judgment. If you forgot to consume the Seal, you only need to use a Judgment on the target that already has 5 stacks using that Seal; it would reset its CD and proc the buff to make Judgment consuming (so, is not exploitable). For SoI, the Judgment would be need to be use on yourself to consume the HoT.

    Idk about Seal of Righteous, maybe a stackable debuff on the target to increase AoE damage? And Judgment consuming its effect would cause a Divine Storm-like effect on the target?

    I know it sounds too complex, but is rewarding, doesnt influences a lot on how we play right now and lets face it, our class is very easy to play, thats what is holding us. It would also put more emphasis on our Seals, which right now are less of a gameplay feature than auras was.

    I think it kinda solves the whole "our class is too easy, we shouldnt make it easier by adding more options to rebuff Inquisition!" imo. Inquisition itself could have some changes: 50% reduced GDC and making it add time to a 35-50s cap instead of completely rebuffing it or locking us from doing it (like it seems to be in 5.2).

    It may sound complex, but only as a design point-of-view. Gameplay wise, we could just ignore it (specially in PvE where we could sit on SoT the whole raid); but still giving options (like changing to SoI to maintain the HoT and make the healing job for healers a little easier; or using SoR if the whole raid is using AoE abilities).
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