Countdown queues are the problem

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60 Human Death Knight
900
That's fine by me. I'm 90% faster than 90% of the people that have studied karate in 90% of the world.

I'm 90% sure i can outrun them... at least 90% of the time.
90 Undead Mage
1935
01/17/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Warglaive
And clearly you havent counted up ANY of them yourself.
Instead of arguing for the sake of arguing go take a look... it is extremely rare for anyone in this forum to admit that they were outplayed (which logically happens approximately 50% of the time).
60 Human Death Knight
900
01/17/2013 07:06 PMPosted by Kiaransali
which logically happens approximately 50% of the time


Because they... flip a coin?

No basis on anything whatsoever. You cant know how often every player in the game was outplayed.
So you make up a number out of thin air that meshes with what you perceive to be the case.

Then you use that arbitrary number call them bad or whiny and often worse.

Because ^THAT^ is the pure basis of a horrid percentage of your posts. To label others as "bad".

edit- it's pretty clear to most people how many players are "bad" - what i dont get is why you constantly feel it's your personal duty to remind everyone. Because if you simply removed all your posts that you do it in...

Well you wouldnt have very much at all to say.
Edited by Warglaive on 1/17/2013 8:15 PM PST
90 Undead Mage
1935
Because they... flip a coin?

No basis on anything whatsoever. You cant know how often every player in the game was outplayed.
So you make up a number out of thin air that meshes with what you perceive to be the case.
You are incredibly dense & clearly argue for the sake of arguing. You have zero grasp of statistics or probability. All the variables like gear, healer balance, etc evens out over time. Sometimes your team outgears the other team and vice versa. Thus in the long run how well (or poorly) a team plays determines the outcome more often than any of the other factors.

01/17/2013 08:01 PMPosted by Warglaive
Then you use that arbitrary number call them bad or whiny and often worse.
There is nothing arbitrary about it. I asked you to look through the forums and take a look at how often a poster blames gear, premades, the lack of healers, etc for losing and how often they admit that they were simply outplayed. Instead of doing this you chose to spew empty rhetoric (not surprising).

Because ^THAT^ is the pure basis of a horrid percentage of your posts. To label others as "bad".
Because it's painfully clear that in the majority of cases the player whining is at least part of the problem (if not most or all).

edit- it's pretty clear to most people how many players are "bad" - what i dont get is why you constantly feel it's your personal duty to remind everyone. Because if you simply removed all your posts that you do it in...

Well you wouldnt have very much at all to say.
Like I have said many times it's because they lack self-awareness and feel entitled. Am I talking to brick walls? Well almost always yes, because they don't think they are the problem in the first place. That still doesn't prevent me & others from telling them the truth, even if they don't want to admit it.
Edited by Kiaransali on 1/17/2013 9:51 PM PST
60 Human Death Knight
900
01/17/2013 09:38 PMPosted by Kiaransali
Thus in the long run how well (or poorly) a team plays determines the outcome more often than any of the other factors.

"In the long run".... that you narrow down to a specific - arbitrary - percentage, and thrust upon every single poster that ever complained about anything on the forums. The forums - which do NOT in any way represent the entire population of the game, only those posting. So out of a selection of individuals you CANNOT know specifics about, but only guess percentages, you predetermine a conclusion --> About the entire player base.

And also predetermine a conclusion specifically about forum posters based on manufactured probablilty...
regarding the entire player base.

If i'm carrying 3 quarters, 3 dimes, and 3 nickles, and i drop all 3 quarters - you cannot factually call one a dime and one a nickle. They are still all quarters, and just because they statistically represent 1/3 of your population of change, that in no way automatically makes them a different denomination when they fall.

People that post are not elected representatives of portions of the community. They just come to post.

You dont KNOW anything. The only thing you can do about them is presume. You do a lot of that.

Always bad. If it wasnt ALWAYS bad it wouldn't be so transparent.
90 Undead Mage
1935
Warglaive as I told you before I care little about individual experiences. I care about trends and the big picture. As I have told you there are very obvious trends that you see in this forum, which I have already explained to you.. complainers often never broke 1500, often lack several gems/enchants, often incorrectly reforge their toon, etc. Yes there are exceptions but when talking about trends their are always exceptions.

I don't know what your RL experience is but I am guessing it is very limited. I say that because you clearly do not understand statistics, facts and assumptions and how they can be properly leveraged to support a particular argument. When you see certain trends consistently over a long period of time you can draw some pretty solid conclusions about the situation... in this case the player who is complaining. Thus you can make pretty accurate assumptions about the validity (or lack thereof) of their claims. Are these assumptions 100% correct 100% of the time? Of course not, but very few observations are 100% accurate. You go with the facts and assumptions available, which is certainly infinitely better than baseless whining (which describes most of the posts in this forum).
90 Human Warrior
13520
Warglaive as I told you before I care little about individual experiences. I care about trends and the big picture. As I have told you there are very obvious trends that you see in this forum, which I have already explained to you.. complainers often never broke 1500, often lack several gems/enchants, often incorrectly reforge their toon, etc. Yes there are exceptions but when talking about trends their are always exceptions.

I don't know what your RL experience is but I am guessing it is very limited. I say that because you clearly do not understand statistics, facts and assumptions and how they can be properly leveraged to support a particular argument. When you see certain trends consistently over a long period of time you can draw some pretty solid conclusions about the situation... in this case the player who is complaining. Thus you can make pretty accurate assumptions about the validity (or lack thereof) of their claims. Are these assumptions 100% correct 100% of the time? Of course not, but very few observations are 100% accurate. You go with the facts and assumptions available, which is certainly infinitely better than baseless whining (which describes most of the posts in this forum).


I have never broke 1500 and have no gems or chants yup
90 Undead Mage
1935
01/17/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Rainbowdash
I have never broke 1500 and have no gems or chants yup
Your problem isn't that you are against 6+ players in a BG together, it's the stuff you say after that (like all premade players are bad, premade players aren't good enough for RBGs, players only do premades to stomp noobs, etc). I have never accused you of being bad, but you do say things that are obviously untrue to get a response (which is the definition of trolling).
60 Human Death Knight
900
01/17/2013 10:20 PMPosted by Kiaransali
but you do say things that are obviously untrue to get a response (which is the definition of trolling).


01/17/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Kiaransali
That is what is lacking in 90% of the players that post here... they never admit that they lost because they simply got outplayed.


edit- by the way:
01/17/2013 10:20 PMPosted by Kiaransali
premade players are bad, premade players aren't good enough for RBGs, players only do premades to stomp noobs, etc

This is accurate about SOME of the oqueue community. The only variable you can argue is how many.

Funny tho how your completely manufactured percentages once again stack arbitrarily in your favor.
Edited by Warglaive on 1/17/2013 10:39 PM PST
01/17/2013 10:20 PMPosted by Kiaransali
I have never broke 1500 and have no gems or chants yup
Your problem isn't that you are against 6+ players in a BG together, it's the stuff you say after that (like all premade players are bad, premade players aren't good enough for RBGs, players only do premades to stomp noobs, etc). I have never accused you of being bad, but you do say things that are obviously untrue to get a response (which is the definition of trolling).


I honestly don't understand this you all claim that you want competitive hard fought games there is a great avenue for that provided by blizzard via rbgs there will never be another vanilla av its not going to happen. I personally loved av in vanilla waking up and zoning into same bg you had been doing when you went to sleep was a trip. For now if you want competitive games you really need to just do rbgs.
91 Undead Warrior
12990
01/17/2013 10:36 PMPosted by Scintillara
For now if you want competitive games you really need to just do rbgs.


wrong.

Cheers.
Pleb.
90 Pandaren Monk
17140
RBGs at all times of the day are swamped with wintraders. RBGs are !@#$ because of these people. Half the games are hardly competitive because of this.
90 Undead Mage
1935
This is accurate about SOME of the oqueue community
No !@#$ but certain anti-premade players say it describes all premade players.

I honestly don't understand this you all claim that you want competitive hard fought games there is a great avenue for that provided by blizzard via rbgs there will never be another vanilla av its not going to happen. I personally loved av in vanilla waking up and zoning into same bg you had been doing when you went to sleep was a trip. For now if you want competitive games you really need to just do rbgs.
I have explained why many times, you just aren't listening. Basically RBGs are more trouble than they are worth unless you find a good team early in the season & play with them consistently. Maybe I'll try them next season again, as I heard they are making some changes (like awarding some conquest for close losses). The worst thing about RBGs (for me) is waiting an hour or more to find a team & if it's a pug you have at least a 50% chance of losing. If you lose usually most of the players leave & you have to spend another 45 minutes to replace them... all wasted time because you got zero conquest.
Edited by Kiaransali on 1/18/2013 7:18 AM PST
90 Human Warlock
7005
OQueue is not the problem. The addon is actually a great tool that I'd like to see incorporated into the base Blizzard UI. Making a 5 man premade for random battlegrounds is perfectly acceptable. Making 10 man groups for rated battlegrounds is encouraged. The problem is that it's possible to take multiple 5 man premade groups into the same random battleground. This is an undocumented feature (bug) that has been around for a long time. It's time that it gets changed.


It is not undocumented - Blizzard is well aware of it.

And you are right, it is time that things get changed.
The 5 man battleground group limit should get lifted. Take 5 minutes and answer me this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592202821
86 Blood Elf Hunter
12895
01/17/2013 06:12 AMPosted by Cear
Because if you're doing something for the fun of it, that should be enough. Why do you need extra incentive? Trust me, Esc has played devil's advocate on this because we were discussing it prior to me posting what I did, and I know that a lot of people apparently need extra rewards but if you need those extra rewards, you aren't doing it for the fun so you're fooling yourself and lying to people if you claim you are.


Exactly.

If people were truly in it "for the fun", they wouldn't join premades because they wouldn't care about winning. They wouldn't use hacks. They wouldn't win trade, or pay to be piloted or carried.

This whole argument that against Blizzard's stated opinion of more than 6 people in a premade is, I predict, going to wind up sounding like a lot of the twinks did when they said they wanted to fight equally geared/skilled people: "That's what we said, but that's not what we meant!"
01/18/2013 09:43 AMPosted by Raensong
Because if you're doing something for the fun of it, that should be enough. Why do you need extra incentive? Trust me, Esc has played devil's advocate on this because we were discussing it prior to me posting what I did, and I know that a lot of people apparently need extra rewards but if you need those extra rewards, you aren't doing it for the fun so you're fooling yourself and lying to people if you claim you are.


Exactly.

If people were truly in it "for the fun", they wouldn't join premades because they wouldn't care about winning. They wouldn't use hacks. They wouldn't win trade, or pay to be piloted or carried.

This whole argument that against Blizzard's stated opinion of more than 6 people in a premade is, I predict, going to wind up sounding like a lot of the twinks did when they said they wanted to fight equally geared/skilled people: "That's what we said, but that's not what we meant!"

QFT please try to refute this one so I can laugh
90 Undead Warlock
7580
01/17/2013 10:36 PMPosted by Scintillara
For now if you want competitive games you really need to just do rbgs.


I do plenty of RBGs AND randoms each week, what is your point?
90 Human Rogue
2855
Your problem isn't that you are against 6+ players in a BG together, it's the stuff you say after that (like all premade players are bad, premade players aren't good enough for RBGs, players only do premades to stomp noobs, etc). I have never accused you of being bad, but you do say things that are obviously untrue to get a response (which is the definition of trolling).

See the problem lies on both sides of the argument, so regurgitating it over and over gets the discussion nowhere. There are forum whiners who jump the gun and are quick to blame the current scapegoat; too much cc, gear levels, premades, bots, etc. etc. However you cannot keep calling players bad because they don't meet your expectations.

I think you and I are a lot alike, we both very much dislike playing battlegrounds the absolute best we can, to have someone make a very silly mistake and lose the game. I've gotten irritated, I've raged, I've said things I shouldn't have. But it's become more and more clear things like that are going to happen. The equalization of the situation is that it's going to happen to both sides of the battleground. I've won wsgs because the EFC bubbled or vanished, and lost them just the same. Was it their fault? Honestly, yes. But it happens.

I've never cried because a premade beat me. They won because they took advantage of their strengths and exploited the enemie's weaknesses. In general that's fine. The problem I have is stacking your strengths to the point of making the opposing team's experience miserable. There's no competition in that, and it just becomes ridiculous when the premade prolongs the game for sheer entertainment. I don't consider that fair, which is why I speak out against. It rarely happens to me, but when it does I do what I can and just accept the loss if it looks inevitable. So you can't honestly lump everyone who disagrees into the category of bad. Just like a lot of posters lump all the premade players into the category of too bad for RBGs, pugstompers etc. etc. Name-calling and throwing blame around is something that honestly should have stopped in elementary school. I'm even guilty of it from time to time.

We're all here to play a game that we consider fun. I truly, truly hope there are not many amongst who do the things they do in battlegrounds just to try to cause other's grief. I know it happens, but I just hope it's not very often. Taking full control over a situation to mold it to meet your needs while forsaking others has no place in a casual pvp setting. It's bad for the game and even worse for the community. Look at the multitudes of posts of nothing but name-calling and bitterness. Player's need to take a long look at themselves before blaming other things. I win the majority of my battlegrounds on Bloodlust Alliance and I've no supreme goal to win every game, it's not going to happen, that is what I consider the spirit of battlegrounds. You should never expect to win them all, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment and will most likely discourage yourself. Play to win, but don't get overly frustrated at a loss, big or small.

The rating/gem/chant arguments are silly as well. If someone is having issues and they've not corrected their own mistakes, then they should take responsibility. They don't need 40 people cramming it down their throat calling them bad. I accidently spent the major of season 11 with a +40 int gem in my pants. It happens. Everyone makes questionable choices (Your gems and talents intrigue me a bit even Kia, but there's no point in calling it out.) The bottomline, both sides of this argument need to take a step back, breathe, and stop all the bitter nonsense. It doesn't help either side.
Edited by Esclamayshun on 1/18/2013 11:14 AM PST
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