Analysis of LFR Loot System

01/18/2013 11:18 AMPosted by Allumei
if I'm not in a progression raid guild that I ought to have less chance of getting loot
i never said that - i clearly said that getting loot QUICKER at endgame, regardless of what your endgame is, leads to unsubbing quicker, and if there is NO NEW content for you to progress to that is EXACTLY what you will do, because this game IS about progression...and no alts are not a reliable factor, since that is not new content progression...blizzard has already stated the players who unsub the most are players who have nothing NEW to progress to
Edited by Zaxan on 1/18/2013 11:23 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11750
01/18/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Zaxan
because the individual loot system is intended to replace the Master Looted system, it needs to do a better job of approximating how that system worked
why would an individual loot system need to work just like a group loot system? might as well keep the group loot system and save yourself the work lol

I don't have that option in LFR. If I queue for LFR, I must play by LFRs rules meaning I get the individualized loot system however Blizzard decides to provide it. I'm suggesting that it could be improved by making it more closely resemble the way so many of us are used to seeing loot distribution systems work and more closely resemble what many of us consider to be "fair."

Again, this is a problem of perception. People are angry because they feel no loot drops. We don't see it. We see slap-in-the-face bags of 28g50 and it's frustrating. We don't get improved chance of loot if we have a run of bad luck. We don't get an increased priority if we're joining the raid but only need 1 specific thing from 1 specific boss. This can be helped, and it would not be a detriment to the game, or a disincentive to keep playing the content.
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01/18/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Allumei
I don't have that option in LFR. If I queue for LFR, I must play by LFRs rules
well of course, you always have to play by the rules of any group you choose to join, do you not? - if you form your own groups, however, you can set your own rules
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01/18/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Allumei
it could be improved by making it more closely resemble the way so many of us are used to
again, why do all that work just to make it the same as the way it was? they did all that work to make it different then what it was, because they could have just left it the same if they wanted it to be the same =P
Edited by Zaxan on 1/18/2013 11:30 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/18/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Allumei
Again, this is a problem of perception. People are angry because they feel no loot drops. We don't see it. We see slap-in-the-face bags of 28g50 and it's frustrating
We used to see absolutely nothing for our efforts except valor and there was not nearly as much QQ about it. I don't know why people are so up in arms about getting a 28.50 g consolation prize.
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01/18/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Allumei
We don't get improved chance of loot
blizzard already stated they do not want you to have an improved chance at loot in LFR =P
Edited by Zaxan on 1/18/2013 11:33 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/18/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Allumei
We don't get improved chance of loot if we have a run of bad luck. We don't get an increased priority if we're joining the raid but only need 1 specific thing from 1 specific boss. This can be helped, and it would not be a detriment to the game, or a disincentive to keep playing the content.
I'll refer you to blog post http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4736886/Dev_Watercooler_-_Mists_of_Pandaria_Looting_Explained-3_27_2012#blog :
Here is a model I’ve seen some people say they want:
  • The boss dies.
  • I get the exact item or items I want.
  • I never have to come back and kill this boss again.
  • I politely ask Blizzard when there will be new content for me to run.

I added that, somewhat tongue in cheek, to point out that the intent of the new system is not to make killing bosses or getting loot more efficient, or to let you choose buffet-style which items you get. We like random loot being random
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11750
01/18/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Zaxan
i never said that - i clearly said that getting loot QUICKER at endgame, regardless of what your endgame is, leads to unsubbing quicker, and if there is NO NEW content for you to progress to that is EXACTLY what you will do, because this game IS about progression...and no alts are not a reliable factor, since that is not new content progression...blizzard has already stated the players who unsub the most are players who have nothing NEW to progress to

Perhaps I didn't make my own counterargument as clearly as I should have. I'm not using numbers and it might help. If we assert that 15% is the loot chance per boss of a fresh 90 popping into LFR for the first time, I stated that the effective drop rate decreases as I gear upand fill slots. That same 15% gets multiplied by another probability that I actually need what is dropped, resulting in a lower number. As I get closer to getting all my slots filled with gear, that probability approaches 0. What I suggested is not to make the chance of getting loot greater than 15%, but less punishing that the "approaching 0" value where it currently is. I'm not saying I want free epics, just less frustration after I've put in many runs through the system and had no luck.

I understand your point about unsubs. Blizzard has stated that this is a problem. In the past, they have cited this when they have taken too long between major content patches, such as after ICC in Wrath and after DS in Cata. They saw unsubs until they released the next expansions. I myself took time off for grad school. However, I don't think this is simply a case of "I need bigger numbers or I quit". There are lots of things to do in the game and reasons to play beyond chasing BiS. While that may be your motivation to play, there are many of us who play for social reasons as well and will log in to spend time with our friends and guildies. I don't see raid progression as they only driver of subscription status or even the primary one as you do. We may have to agree to disagree on that one.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
8125
The problem is psychological. When you sit down and open your bag and get nothing but the smell of a stale fart and look around and not even knowing if anyone else got anything where before you would know who got what and could bargain with them to try and get something it grinds on you and makes you feel like you've wasted your time.

Its like hitting your head on a brick wall, you know that 25% of all the bricks in the wall are actually soft and breakable but you don't get to choose when or where you hit your head on the wall. Ultimately it feels no different from hitting your head on a regular brick wall and is just as discouraging when you never succeed.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13895


IF something is awarded to me. the rest of the time as far as i am aware of the bosses drop nothing.
haha, ok, so you rather believe blizzard is a liar? go for it, believe what you want, i prefer to believe blizzard


i have no idea where you're going with this, but i believe you've completely missed the point of my post. there is a perceptual problem. i happen to enjoy seeing a boss drop loot. the automated system that lfr uses hides a great deal of information that it used to be available.

as loot is awarded directly and cannot be traded anyway there is no reason to hide this information.
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90 Human Warlock
9105
LFR has grown on me. As a person that does not like to schedule playtime around a raid, I find it very accessible. My luck has started to change (started with a couple week cold spell), and I'm getting gear that makes me feel like I'm improving my toon. The worst thing that has happened to me is having my queue pop but not being able to zone in on a raid that is on the last boss in combat.
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5 Human Mage
0

i have no idea where you're going with this, but i believe you've completely missed the point of my post. there is a perceptual problem. i happen to enjoy seeing a boss drop loot. the automated system that lfr uses hides a great deal of information that it used to be available.

as loot is awarded directly and cannot be traded anyway there is no reason to hide this information.


Would it be better if AFTER you lost the roll, you were told....

"You lost the roll for XXX item. Instead you get this bag of gold"

??
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11750
01/18/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Zaxan
it could be improved by making it more closely resemble the way so many of us are used to
again, why do all that work just to make it the same as the way it was? they did all that work to make it different then what it was, because they could have just left it the same if they wanted it to be the same =P

Personally, I thought the other model was better because it felt more satisfying. As I've stated that I think the problem is perception my instinct is to try and address the perception of unfairness. I understand the need for individualized loot because of the nature of LFR, so I don't think we should just scrap that system at all, but again, I think it can be improved, so I offer ideas. Blizzard doesn't have to take them, but I think the discussion is helpful especially when I get some quality people on the other end making the counterargument =)

@Ronduwil: Thanks for referencing that. I remember reading it and it clearly states GC's position. My only reply to that is that I disagree with the idea that Blizzard can't eventually just let the player have the carrot on a stick eventually on the matter of LFR loot. As Zaxan has pointed out, there is still progression in Normal and Heroic modes from which to get gear if you're one of the dedicated to progression, so LFR's really just a stepping stone anyway. For the more casual player, we're playing on weekends and during our free time anyway, so we're already self-limiting our progression. I think there's room to maneuver in terms of rate of loot gain, again, because the players who are driven to min/max and progress will be seeking gear from Normal and Heroic modes anyway, so the rate at which LFR offers loot is irrelevant to them once they start seeing 489+ in their gear slots.
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90 Undead Monk
9835
In general I feel that the new loot system in LFR is better for many of the reasons stated. I feel it can be improved (and by improved I don't mean "give me exactly what I want the first pass through").

1.) I want to see what drops, even if I don't get something I can see that other people are. We can't trade loot anymore so it's not even possible to guilt people into giving gear or to have people take items just to trade them. I want to see it so that I know that at this point, I was unlucky, but the items ARE dropping. I also think it would be great that random people could, as a group, react together to the loot process in a positive way, "holy hell that boss was a loot pinata guys!" "aw man, that boss didn't have jack!" We need more things to make LFR a positive social experience.

2.) We need to be a part of the loot process in some way. Not just "bam we autolooted for you and you got a bag of fail gold! woo!" Put some interactivity into it. It's so anticlimactic that half the time I don't even bother looking to see what I got until the end. Give us a choice. Something like, "You found [ITEM], accept it or trade it in for a slightly increased chance of loot (which stacks and lasts until you accept an item)." Many times bosses have multiple items on them that each spec/class can use. Even if people refused items until they got to the boss that drops the weapon, there's still a chance they won't get it because that boss also drops, like this tier for me, a helm token and an offset shoulder piece. This makes it so people don't get angry over getting repeat items over and over again. If they want them for other spec's or different enchanting setups, they can take it. If they don't, it goes back to the loot pot. And visually tell us exactly what we're getting, as in "You've chosen not to take [ITEM]. You receive a small bonus on loot rolls. You currently have a +% chance to receive loot."

3.) Don't insult me with a bag that I have to click in my inventory that isn't worth the time it takes to click it. I know this is on the list, fluff oriented rewards such as pets and misc things. I'm not into them, but at least I know someone cares about that stuff and they're great rewards for those folks.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11750
The LFR crowd needs to stop being so gear-obsessed and try normal mode. It's much more fulfilling.

You're skipping all the challenge, camaraderie, strategy, and fun, and reducing your entire gameplay experience to that 15% chance of the boss dropping an item.

No wonder you're unhappy and pissed off.

I'm not pissed off at all. I'm a little frustrated that LFR doesn't want to drop weapons for me on any of my alts, but that's part of the RNG game. I do enjoy the challenge of Normal modes. I think they're fun if you've got a quality group of people to run with. I work a schedule that changes quite a bit so making scheduled raid times is not easy, hence getting a dedicate raid spot is difficult. I use LFR for the convenience of being able to raid when I want to accepting that it comes with certain limitations (jerks, freeloaders, less-than-ideal-for-me loot system, easier mechanics, etc).

I'm hardly reducing my enjoyment of the game to the 15% chance of loot dropping from an LFR boss. I'm merely saying the system is less than ideal and can be improved. Reducing the argument to this and then dismissing it isn't really fair.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13895
Would it be better if AFTER you lost the roll, you were told....

"You lost the roll for XXX item. Instead you get this bag of gold"

??


there is no competitive roll now, so i see no problem with leaving out that information. i would simply like to see what other members of my raid are being awarded. similar to how it works in normal groups.
"so and so has looted or been awarded xxx"

along with that handy linking function so i can see its stats and visuals. i can examine something that got awarded to a healer for example, examine it and think 'hey that's really neat. i'll have to run this boss with my priest later.'

its also possible that seeing this information will show how well or poorly the new system is at distributing loot in comparison to the old. since loot is individual now it should be theoretically possible to see between 0 and 25 loot drops per boss.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11750
01/18/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Lehane
its also possible that seeing this information will show how well or poorly the new system is at distributing loot in comparison to the old. since loot is individual now it should be theoretically possible to see between 0 and 25 loot drops per boss.

If the problem is perceived unfairness. This little gesture of transparency might help reassure people that although they personally aren't receiving loot, someone is. While my initial gut reaction was that this isn't necessary and might result in loot drama, people link what they got anyway and we already see when stuff gets sharded, so I'm not seeing a real reason not to do this.
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01/18/2013 12:39 PMPosted by Tempcharac
Some of you here need to understand, when people put in effort, they expect to be rewarded
ok and? if you EXPECT to be rewarded for your effort, yet choose to put your effort into something that does NOT guarantee you WILL be rewarded with what you want, who exactly is the one NOT understanding?
Edited by Zaxan on 1/18/2013 12:49 PM PST
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