Analysis of LFR Loot System

90 Human Paladin
10635
How about redeemable reputation tokens? Blizzard keeps asking us, "Well, what are your suggestions for options to doing dailies, other than wearing tabards in heroics?"

There's mine.


I'd be fine with that, but they are doing stuff for rep already.
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66 Worgen Death Knight
5575
01/18/2013 01:41 PMPosted by Yandere
I'm still scratching my head over why people are upset about the bag when the old system gave you absolutely nothing.


You got gold with every boss kill under the old system. I wouldn't call that nothing.


Perception issue. People can't see gear dropping like they're used to, regardless if it goes to them or not. So, they freak out and think that the run was a complete waste of time.

As for the gold, doing daillies drop more gold than that. It's not considered by many as "compensation" for their time spent.
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90 Human Priest
8190
01/18/2013 01:09 PMPosted by Bashiok
We're not looking to make LFR drops guaranteed, that kind of reliable gearing is what Justice and Valor are for not boss fights


Unless you are not a questing fan and elect not to do the "optional" dailies, and by "optional" I in no way mean forced........ in this case you can spend valor on nothing. Currently you can use it to upgrade an item, but in 5.2 this option will also be taken away.

Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread but had to chime in there. As this adds to why the system is broken.
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90 Human Paladin
10635


Not a problem. It's a hidden variable and it's not intended to guarantee you the loot you want.


3 Problems:

a) People are gonna find out about it.
b) Since it will increase drop chance Blizzard will need to decrease the initial chance to balance out the overall rate of gear dropping
c) Even if they don't do (b), the psychological problem is there: The chances are better than before or equal if you win something on prev bosses, However when you win something you didn't want you know it already slightly decreased your chance of winning something in further bosses which is bad.


a) A minority. How many knew this system was in place for quests?
b) I doubt they'll change it. 15% isn't a magic number. If it goes slightly higher as a result, it's no big deal.
c) See a) and if you do know about it, deal with it.

Honestly, I don't think the change was necessary, but guess what? These changes are further proof that Blizzard does listen.
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90 Human Paladin
10635
01/18/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Miyuki


You got gold with every boss kill under the old system. I wouldn't call that nothing.


Perception issue. People can't see gear dropping like they're used to, regardless if it goes to them or not. So, they freak out and think that the run was a complete waste of time.

As for the gold, doing daillies drop more gold than that. It's not considered by many as "compensation" for their time spent.


I'm aware of that, hence this suggestion: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592802590?page=7#132
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90 Human Paladin
10635
01/18/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Wonkothesane
We're not looking to make LFR drops guaranteed, that kind of reliable gearing is what Justice and Valor are for not boss fights


Unless you are not a questing fan and elect not to do the "optional" dailies, and by "optional" I in no way mean forced........ in this case you can spend valor on nothing. Currently you can use it to upgrade an item, but in 5.2 this option will also be taken away.

Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread but had to chime in there. As this adds to why the system is broken.


You should probably try reading the 5.2 patch notes.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
14875
Dear Blizzard,

Despite what the loot whiners are saying, I don't give a flying fornication what other people get so I don't care to have my screen filled with useless information.

- a paying customer.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6270
01/18/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Wonkothesane
We're not looking to make LFR drops guaranteed, that kind of reliable gearing is what Justice and Valor are for not boss fights


Unless you are not a questing fan and elect not to do the "optional" dailies, and by "optional" I in no way mean forced........ in this case you can spend valor on nothing. Currently you can use it to upgrade an item, but in 5.2 this option will also be taken away.

Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread but had to chime in there. As this adds to why the system is broken.

Do you realize that what you just said is "I only want to play the game one specific way, and I expect to be able to get full rewards from doing one thing"? You don't want to put in the work (read: You want to roflstomp all over LFR) and still want the full rewards? Nice try.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
Furthermore, I did the calculations assuming that everybody who could roll Need would. I made no attempt to estimate how many would not actually Need, or how many of them would be considerate.
I did some calculations that assumed that 75% of the raid was geared with allowances for at least one troll in the group to mimic what I typically saw at the end of Cataclysm. When I did that I saw that the rates roughly corresponded to the numbers that you were reporting (close to a 25% win rate). Without those adjustments the win rates turned out to actually be marginally lower than the current 15% win rate. The fact is that people only perceive drop rates to be lower now because they can't skew them by having their buddies roll and by pestering the geared players to pass.

In another thread I did some calculations with the current system (which is concrete and requires no hand-waving) and determined that you have a 92.6% chance of coming out of your weekly LFR with at least one item (maybe not an item you needed, but an item) after sixteen bosses. That's actually a much higher return rate than what I currently see in my normal 10-man raids. At this point I'm inclined to write an addon that does this calculation on specific items for you just to help establish proper expectations and alleviate some of the QQ on the forums.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
15715

1) Show the loot everybody wins, and show people their own rolls. Both pieces of information will make it "feel" like a closer thing.


We're still not convinced this is the right way to go about it. Our initial approaches are going to be based around your personal drops, win or lose, feeling more satisfying. If it still feels like killing bosses and seeing what you get doesn't feel good, we'll continue to evaluate.



I just don't understand the reasoning for this at all, so I hope you could explain this a bit further. If the boss dies and I see random player A get an item, and random player B get an item, how is that going to cause loot drama or create bad feelings? My efforts and the efforts of 22 other people helped these 2 people get loot. Everyone knows the items are not tradeable and there is no choice in the matter. At least killing the boss didn't feel like a waste of time because somebody got something, even if its enchanting shards, it just wasn't me this time.

I mean, if the boss dies and we see 15 people get stuff, that is exciting! The raid beat the odds and the boss coughed up more loot than expected! The only thing I can come up with that would be demoralizing is seeing 24 people get loot from one boss and you get nothing, that would make someone feel pretty unlucky. It honestly boggles my mind why this isn't a no-brainer for you guys.


2) Give every player a hidden variable of their chance of getting loot, and for each failed roll increase that variable by a small amount. Say, 2%. If you go an entire week of full LFR with no loot, your next roll would get a +32% roll.


I made [url="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7414952405?page=6#106"]a recent post[/url] that covers a bit of this, and nods at some future possibilities as far as ensuring LFR runs feel rewarding. We're not looking to make LFR drops guaranteed, that kind of reliable gearing is what Justice and Valor are for not boss fights, but certainly the opposite of guaranteed can be just as bad. It's something we're looking at and talking about internally, we just don't have anything specific to share right yet.

Aside from that, we call the Elder Charm 28.50 bag the fail bag because it fails as a consolation prize in generating excitement, or even feeling like a consolation. If you don't win a piece of gear, fine it happens, but at the very least spending a charm should give you something to look forward to. Getting a bag, anticipating what might be inside, and having the possibility of being excited about what it contains is the goal. That change will be in 5.2.


I don't know why gauranteed loot is such a bad thing. I mean, not an I.Win button every LFR, but if you could somehow increase your chances, or gaurantee one or two items every raid tier (taking months to hit the gaurantee parameters), then how could that be a bad thing. It would definitely offset any feelings of 'being that one unlucky guy that fell through the odds' just by knowing that eventually it has to work. I think the worst part of this game is going week after week feeling like you'll never see that one thing you really want. The best thing about the game is seeing it finally drop for you. I just think this is an area where you can dampen the negative aspect without harming the positive aspect.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
I don't know why gauranteed loot is such a bad thing. I mean, not an I.Win button every LFR, but if you could somehow increase your chances, or gaurantee one or two items every raid tier (taking months to hit the gaurantee parameters), then how could that be a bad thing.
This was explained in blog post http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4736886 :
Here is a model I’ve seen some people say they want:
  • The boss dies.
  • I get the exact item or items I want.
  • I never have to come back and kill this boss again.
  • I politely ask Blizzard when there will be new content for me to run.

I added that, somewhat tongue in cheek, to point out that the intent of the new system is not to make killing bosses or getting loot more efficient, or to let you choose buffet-style which items you get. We like random loot being random
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
I just don't understand the reasoning for this at all, so I hope you could explain this a bit further. If the boss dies and I see random player A get an item, and random player B get an item, how is that going to cause loot drama or create bad feelings?
You have 20 DS LFR kills and you don't get how this will cause loot drama? Am I the only one who remembers seeing this every raid?
Kick <Player>! They're bottom DPS and didn't deserve to win!

No one can ever be happy for anyone in this game. Yesterday a paladin rolled need on a BoE tank piece and got kicked from the group for it. That's why it's better to not even see who got what.
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90 Human Priest
15065
Color me crazy, but I'm one of those weird people that like to run LFR for fun. I feel like, due to my heroic gearing, that I am helping others out by doing LFR, all the while getting valor and my own personal illusion of actually raiding to get it. When it comes to the gear that drops, luckily I'm an enchanter and can make wonderful Sha Crystals from it, but I'd honestly rather see it go to someone that could make use of it.

If there were some option to queue and be disqualified from loot at some sort of bonus (increased Valor or something) for your first time doing that LFR for the week, I'd gladly take that. I'm sure a lot of raiders would take that. It would put more experienced people in the raids to help out, and maybe give the other players an increased chance at loot (though that suggestion sounds like it could easily get abused).

Now when I am running LFR on my alts, I do get discouraged when I see bag after bag of gold, and read in chat about everyone else getting bag after bag of gold. Actually seeing other people get loot would, from a psychological standpoint, make me feel like the work I was putting forth wasn't in vain. I'd know someone was benefiting from the kill. I'm not entirely sure what negative side effect seeing other people getting loot would have. You have no personal control over it. It isn't influenced by them rolling on something they don't need, it's just being handed out. As it is right now, it doesn't feel like a group effort when you don't see your fellow raiders (LFR raiders, that is) getting anything after killing a boss. There is satisfaction in seeing others achieve.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13805
01/18/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Steehll
If there were some option to queue and be disqualified from loot at some sort of bonus (increased Valor or something) for your first time doing that LFR for the week, I'd gladly take that. I'm sure a lot of raiders would take that. It would put more experienced people in the raids to help out, and maybe give the other players an increased chance at loot (though that suggestion sounds like it could easily get abused).
Under the current system your being disqualified from loot would do nothing for others because everyone is rolling against the system, not against each other. Under the old system you were "taking loot from others" by rolling but that's not the case anymore. If 25 people get a high roll in the current system all 25 come away with loot. You can DE your purple items with a clear conscience.

That having been said, I did make a suggestion earlier ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592802590?page=7#135 ) to give people like you the option to pick a different category of item to roll for: mounts, flasks, offspec gear, etc. That way people like you could actually feel like you had a shot at a substantial reward for your effort.
Edited by Ronduwil on 1/18/2013 2:27 PM PST
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66 Worgen Death Knight
5575
01/18/2013 02:12 PMPosted by Ronduwil
I just don't understand the reasoning for this at all, so I hope you could explain this a bit further. If the boss dies and I see random player A get an item, and random player B get an item, how is that going to cause loot drama or create bad feelings?
You have 20 DS LFR kills and you don't get how this will cause loot drama? Am I the only one who remembers seeing this every raid?
Kick <Player>! They're bottom DPS and didn't deserve to win!

No one can ever be happy for anyone in this game. Yesterday a paladin rolled need on a BoE tank piece and got kicked from the group for it. That's why it's better to not even see who got what.


Indeed. I guess the fun in the spectator aspect of seeing others win loot got utterly demolished by the sheer amount of jealousy and envy that exists in the community as it stands now.

It seems as if rewards have to be completely hidden from others, otherwise a player would immediately be subject to beratement and harassment. To think that raiding was supposed to be a team activity. Might as well replace everyone else with NPCs at this rate.
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90 Orc Death Knight
18660
Look, I'm not mad at the fact we're going to be getting extra stuff from the Elder Charm bag ... but, c'mon -- I still can't believe people are complaining about free gold.

Free. Gold.

Have people become such ingrates that even being giving something for free warrants complaining ?


Mom can I have some candy. Nope but here have this plastic Carrot. ... but I wanted candy. I know so I gave you this wonderful Carrot instead. I cant even eat this mom. A real carrot would be bad enough. YOU'LL TAKE YOUR CARROT AND LIKE IT.
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90 Worgen Druid
12400


[quote] We're not looking to make LFR drops guaranteed, that kind of reliable gearing is what Justice and Valor are for not boss fights, but certainly the opposite of guaranteed can be just as bad. It's something we're looking at and talking about internally, we just don't have anything specific to share right yet.



Ok, I'm fine with it. However, I'm an altoholic. I like to gear up my alts. Right now, there is just no way I can gear a toon using only LFR (and obviously, there is no way I'm going to do dailies on 6 or 7 toons...)

Let's take the example of my hunter. I've done pretty much every LFR for the last 5 weeks straight. I've won a ring. That's all. How am I supposed to get enough gear to enter the next LFR in 5.2 (which required iLvl is going to be 480) ? By winning 1 piece out of 5 weeks of doing LFRs ?

The only way to really be able to gear myself up, would be either spending 40-50k gold to buy 496 gear, doing dailies (what if I don't want to ? What if I don't like dailies ?)

Honestly, this expansion is really great...besides the fact that this is really not alt-friendly. This is a huge letdown for people like me.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10200
I have read and read and read discussion about this, and being a person that generally has bad luck, I have tried to brainstorm ideas with my guildies, with other players, and even with my wife from an outside point of view, supplying her with JUST the facts, as to not suggest there is any bias. Here are a few things I came up with with the help of these others.

Assuming we stay with the current loot system, which is most likely, as compared to the old LFR system.

1. If loot drops that you have already won, you should have the option to accept the piece of loot as is(whether you would like to test reforging/gemming or maybe just DE the item) OR be allowed to trade the item for a "token" that could maybe be collected and traded into a vendor for one of the following.
-2 tokens(boss specific, think Charm of the Spirit Kings) could buy you a different piece of gear from the specific boss' loot table. This would reward someone who may have bad luck getting a specific piece of gear with the ability to be rewarded with multiple successful rolls on certain items.
-1 token can be sold to the vendor for a bag of goodies that would include gold(always) food, flasks or potions(sometimes) or special items like pets, mounts, BoE epics(Very rarely)
*This method would allow a player to feel rewarded in a time/effort way and also allow them to gear up their off specs as well. It would also give incentive for those that don't necessarily need gear from LFR to run it, if not only for the extra chance at being rewarded with the possibility of something extra that could be either fun, helpful with their normal raiding, or just to hoard moar gold!

2. Expand Elder Charm use. Allow players to use them either to add a bonus to their initial loot roll(which would not allow them a second bonus roll), use them as they do now, or not use them at all on a given boss.

3. Allow a piece of gear on a loot table to be traded into a vendor for a token(kind of like option 1). Certain other pieces of gear can then be bought off of boss loot table for tokens plus gold, or tokens plus JPs, or tokens plus VPs, or tokens + honor/conquest. You wouldn't have to make it painful, but you could make it spendy enough to trigger a conscious rationalization about whether it is worth it or not. To expand on this, maybe you could make it so that every bag of gold that drops from a boss in LFR, a fragment of a token is included, which can eventually be combined(10 fragments for 1 token) that would be equivalent to the token you would receive for winning a piece of loot you already have, or don't need and trading it in. You could even make these tokens tradeable to other players at the same ratio. "Oh, I see you won a set of "Leggings of Awesomeness" and you don't need them. I have 3 "Tokens of Really Crappy Luck", would you be willing to trade? Just an idea.

4. Just make LFR loot tradable to people in the same group. We already know it is possible, because you used to do it in the old system. Why is this such a big deal? The only drama it could POSSIBLY cause is if someone wanted an outrageous amount of gold to trade it. If so, so what? YOU didn't win the item ANYWAYS, because it wasn't in your loot table in the first place. But why should I be punished if someone wants to help another person out of the kindness of their heart? I personally am one of those people that has had extra loot I didn't need drop into my bags off a boss, that I would have LOVED to have given to another player that needed it. Why do we punish BOTH sides of the coin? Not EVERYONE is looking out for ONLY numero uno. I don't know about everyone else, but I have had some bad groups, even now after raiding for so long, and to be honest, I would rather give someone a piece of loot I didn't necessarily need if I thought it would help our chances moving forward, or even down the road if I happened to get paired with that person in another LFR in the future.

Anyways, I have a lot of other ideas, but I have rambled off a lot already, and I don't really want this to be skipped over and dismissed too much. Just trying to provide some feedback from multiple points of view.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11750
I made a recent post that covers a bit of this, and nods at some future possibilities as far as ensuring LFR runs feel rewarding. We're not looking to make LFR drops guaranteed, that kind of reliable gearing is what Justice and Valor are for not boss fights, but certainly the opposite of guaranteed can be just as bad. It's something we're looking at and talking about internally, we just don't have anything specific to share right yet.

Aside from that, we call the Elder Charm 28.50 bag the fail bag because it fails as a consolation prize in generating excitement, or even feeling like a consolation. If you don't win a piece of gear, fine it happens, but at the very least spending a charm should give you something to look forward to. Getting a bag, anticipating what might be inside, and having the possibility of being excited about what it contains is the goal. That change will be in 5.2.

I completely agree on the fail bag concept. It looks like a failure, smells like failure, and stings like a failure. I'm not sure exactly how to fix that. Making it function like the Exotic Satchels isn't a bad idea, providing flasks and small chances at rare pets. On a side note, I just got Parrot Cage (Hyacinth Macaw) from one of those, so RNG can be kind, randomly, as it's designed to be. But in my opinion, if I'm running that entire raid merely for a chance at the one item I need from one boss for the umpteenth week, and it doesn't drop, I'm still going to be disappointed and frustrated when it doesn't, no matter whether you throw me a bone or not. I don't think it'll solve the problem. People will still be upset and frustrated and that's the nature of RNG. I'm not sure if that needs to change.

I wonder if charms could be worked to provide a reroll with additional +% chance to drop loot. Rather than making it a second roll against the loot table at 15%, why not let the charm roll (we only get 3/wk and that's if we do our chores) roll at 20% or 25%? Remember that in the case of the person who needs the one item from the one boss, that boss may still drop 3 items on the loot table for his spec. The net probability of getting the only item needed is 25% x 1/3 => ~8% (vs. 15% x 1/3 => 5% currently).
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