A message to Ravencrest's Raiding Guilds

100 Human Paladin
13805
As I am sure you've noticed, the past few weeks have seen the departure of some of Ravencrest's top raiding guilds. Requiem's main raid team has left the server, and a few days later, Ravenfail's Finest departed as well.

A lot of talk about "why" leads to the inevitable discussion about how bad Ravencrest's players are. And while it may be easy to blame the select few that are quite terrible, the simple fact of the matter is, not EVERYONE on Ravencrest sucks.

There is talent out there: every raiding guild has a few all-stars, a few who stand out above the rest.

The problem, if you'll give the expression, is that there are too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. Usually, the better players lead the raids, and given the fact that many of the people who seek the role of raid leader find it enjoyable, not enough of them want to give that up.

So what you have are guilds who are 'looking to fill a raid'; and this is when they turn to recruiting.

Unfortunately for these efforts, Ravencrest is not a young server. It has a lot of guilds that have been around since Vanilla, or even before that. Most of the raid leaders have been in guilds for years, and they don't want to leave to join someone else's raid.

Now what I am suggesting (in case you're getting ahead of yourselves!), is not to have these people suck it up and disband their raids, or leave the server to join someone else's raid anyway, but instead, choose the other alternative: co-operate.

Back in TBC, this server had a guild alliance - its name escapes me - on the Horde side. They joined a few guilds together (the Horde has always been a smaller population on Ravencrest, it was hard to put 25 man raids together back then for them), and pushed content.

I know The Firm - a guild in which I was an officer - teamed up with another guild, although its name escapes me, to clear The Eye.

These were 25-man raids too, which took a lot of co-operation and team effort to put together two different guilds.

So yes, you might have to swallow up your pride a little - you might not get guild achievements with a mixed group; is that really the only thing stopping you from raiding? But if you want to raid here on Ravencrest, you either need an existing guild raid team, or you join up with another guild and work something out together.

Who knows, in the process some new raiding guilds may form - with full rosters.
Edited by Atrea on 1/9/2013 3:47 PM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
100 Troll Priest
14595
PWRS was the group horde side.

There is the familyroom channel horde side if you need to fill a raid, <The Covenant>, <Dirty Rotten Horde>, and <TARDIS> use it that I know of, there may be others.

But I definitely agree to the "too many chiefs and not enough indians", but this is not a new problem on RC and it's not unique to RC either, unfortunately.
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90 Goblin Warrior
16570
Honestly, as someone who was trying to recruit for a Raiding guild in late Cataclysm / Mists. It's not even a problem of " too many Chiefs and not enough Indians " a lot of the time. It's simply the fact you'll get people in your raid who fall under the following categories:
  • Don't want to commit the time, but thought they could
  • Think they're capable of raiding, but simply aren't cut out for it
  • Want to raid, but don't want to take legitimate criticism
  • Given, there's also the people who simply don't want to do what they feel like is "abandoning their old home." Myself being included for quite a while.

    My experience on Ravencrest since Cataclysm launched or so (given, I was a bit of a douche for my time spent raiding, but even more recently when going about it calmly, and as gently as possible) is that people simply do not want to take criticism on how to improve. Even if it's something as small as mentioning "Don't stand in the fire," you would immediately see in chat "why you so mad though it's just a video game" and it kind of ruins the entire experience for you.
    Especially when it's a genuine "I just want to help you not to 20k DPS and be dead on every fight, please stop doing bad things" kind of comment.
    Something I've heard on Ravencrest more than anyone else is the "Don't tell me how to play my class, it's just a game so have fun." Unfortunately, a lot of the server followed that mindset, as well as the idea that being sub par is perfectly fine, in any environment.

    Now, this isn't to say that literally everyone is like that. And there are maybe a raid team or two that could at least kill bosses somewhere on the server. But I couldn't find those people for the life of me while I was still putting time into the game on Ravencrest. And until people are willing to accept help on the server, and band together, then there isn't a whole lot left to say for them in my opinion.

    On that same note, however. If you're looking for a raiding guild, and you genuinely want to improve and progress with a guild. Do it. Guilds like <lets go redwings> (shameless somewhat self-promotion) have been recruiting since the launch of MoP, and have gone through maybe a handful of recruit, because you simply don't get many people.

    Anyway, TL:DR, my experience isn't so much that people are too focused on leading / not wanting to abandon old home guilds, but not wanting to spend the time that others might want out of them in the game, so they can improve to be capable raiders, or maybe the server just simply don't want to raid.

    P.S. Edit,
    My post in general is more or less directed at making a guild who is aiming to raid to progress through the tier, not necessarily just a guild raiding to do it. Because, obviously to each their own comes into play.
    Edited by Elbbarcs on 1/9/2013 5:17 PM PST
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    100 Dwarf Paladin
    13900
    @ Scrabble

    When Ravenfail's Finest was looking for people for alt runs, we would go through numerous amounts of people that would have something wrong with their gear/gems/reforge/enchants/etc, and when asked about it, would simply come up with an excuse. For example, we came across a hunter that was not capped on Hit, and when asked, he said that he pulled more DPS without being capped.

    It's pretty surprising how many people on Ravencrest don't want to be told how to improve and take it as an insult. I think that's the main reason many of the top raiding guilds on Ravencrest quit: There's just simply not enough people willing to put in the amount of effort that top-of-the-line heroic raiding requires. They don't have the same mindset as a top end raider. A 2-3k DPS increase to a heroic raider is HUGE, whereas the typical person on Ravencrest would only see it as "Only" 2-3K.

    It's really a shame that more people on Ravencrest don't raid to be the best that they can, or I think this server would still have plenty of the top end raiding guilds still here.
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    90 Troll Rogue
    12295
    No, it's definitely just that people on Ravencrest are bad. Just accept it. Pugs rarely get past Feng because people can't even comprehend a simple spread --> stack fight or tanks are incapable of correctly using barriers or healers are incapable of doing more than 4k hps.

    Everyone decent realizes this eventually and transfers off.

    And slightly side topic, but I think you're entirely wrong about there being "too many chiefs, not enough indians". Who actually enjoys raid leading? Like why you would want to deal with everyone's problems when you could just be a raider that just shows up and actually enjoys the game as opposed to actually having the job of organizing the raid and making sure everyone actually shows up?
    Edited by Iracor on 1/9/2013 8:46 PM PST
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    90 Goblin Warrior
    16570
    but I think you're entirely wrong about there being "too many chiefs, not enough indians". Who actually enjoys raid leading?

    A lot of people. It's simply that no one wants to lead the generic person you'd meet from Ravencrest these days. If no one enjoyed raid leading, there probably wouldn't be nearly as many guilds as there in the competitive raiding scene. It's just that a lot of people, despite enjoying leading, can't do it by themselves, thus having officers comes into play.

    But, it is an unfortunate truth that the vast majority of Ravencrest enjoys a very casual play style, despite maybe not wanting to admit to it. On that same note though, I know there are people who want to learn, and do want to take the game more seriously. But also in that group of people are those who can't spend the time in the game to dedicate to a raiding guild.
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    100 Troll Druid
    10570
    01/09/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Elbbarcs
    On that same note though, I know there are people who want to learn, and do want to take the game more seriously. But also in that group of people are those who can't spend the time in the game to dedicate to a raiding guild.


    This is me. :( I'd love to heal or learn how to tank properly, but I'm lucky if I can log on to actually play twice a week. !@#$ sucks. :l
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    90 Worgen Warlock
    15155
    It's been about 7 months since I transferred, and as much as I appreciate small tighter knit communities I don't regret the decision to transfer. Part of it is because I love world pvp and shrine ganking is a ton of fun, but finding people who can both commit to and handle hard mode raids isn't nearly as difficult. Comparing more recent applications here to those over the past few years on Ravencrest (And not just to Requiem) made me realize just how difficult it is to recruit people that are a good fit to a guild looking to actually clear the hard modes before either the next tier is released or it is nerfed to triviality, whichever comes first. A good application was basically non-existent. You don't have to be a robot incapable of making mistakes. These people would not do the most basic things like reforge properly, and when asked some general questions about rotations or boss mechanics they would give some pretty strange answers. There are certainly other problems with having a successful raid here that were highlighted above, but this is one that has stuck out to me for a long time.

    Also Ravencrest really perpetuates some bad mindsets. For example the belief that doing something wrong is acceptable simply because it doesn't directly wipe the raid or cause problems. Another is that being told to stop doing something or do something differently means that you are being called bad or they are being mean elitist jerkfaces. Finally, there is guild stereotyping. Like all the people who would say Requiem, Ravenfail's Finest, etc was full of mean elitist jerkfaces even though they haven't had any contact with anyone in the guild outside of what they saw in trade chat. Not saying that nobody deserved it, but using that to make a generalization about an entire group of people and then spreading that perception to other people doesn't reflect well on you.

    Whether or not you should remain here depends on what you want out of the game. If you're looking to clear content on a schedule that works for you then you should look for another server - there are thousands of guilds to choose from. It isn't like you have to sacrifice any social aspect (Lol) of the game to do so. I've met a lot of people that I like playing with since I moved and I have people from Ravencrest on my real ID. If you're content here that's good, but a lot of people aren't due to the lack of success raiding here in the recent months. Regardless of whether or not there is still a chance to clear the content raiding on Ravencrest, you'd be better off searching elsewhere in the long run.
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    100 Human Paladin
    13805
    01/09/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Elbbarcs
    If no one enjoyed raid leading, there probably wouldn't be nearly as many guilds as there in the competitive raiding scene.


    That, in a nutshell, is why I made this post.

    I see tons of recruiting spam in trade, tons of recruiting posts on this forum, but all from different guilds. You have any number of guilds that are trying to fill a raiding roster, and every week you see that number increase. Obviously these guilds aren't raiding.

    I see a few people from the Horde commenting on the status of Ravencrest's raiding scene, and I appreciate your point of view as Horde players, but I think some of your commentary is not necessarily true of the Alliance players here; at least not all of them.

    There are some great folks spread across a few guilds. We have a lot of great players in Serenity, but most of us are already raiding. That is the thing - this advice is really only for those who are currently not raiding but want to be. If you are putting together raids, then awesome. But for those who are great players, but not currently raiding - you guys should get together with some (perhaps rival?) guilds that are in the same boat - and put together something.

    It's a lot of this pigheadedness - the refusal to say "no, I need to swallow my pride and raid with that guy from Requiem (or wherever)", that is causing these guilds to slowly disband and transfer off.

    A lot of the same players who were active during TBC's progress wars still play here - even after Requiem and Ravenfail's finest's departures. Those players were legitimately good players, and they now pepper a lot of these smaller guilds. Find some of your old teammates -- or some of your old rivals, and raid with them!
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    MVP
    100 Orc Warrior
    10390
    I don't understand why this is even a discussion. We all know the story of Ravencrest, it's Ravenfail, it costs $50 to transfer here, we are all bad, we wipe on trash, etc. etc. Either find the people who want to raid and are serious and get them to join your guild or transfer elsewhere where you think you will have a better chance at it. I, for one, enjoy my mediocrity and couldn't be bothered to try and change the way I do things. I'm having fun, and I am sure many other people here feel that way.
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    90 Goblin Warrior
    16570
    Meh, editing to maybe make the post seem less like just calling it a worthless effort.

    So, posting this with the hopes to clear up a couple things.
    First, all of my views are from an Alliance point of view, more specifically, myself being Scrabble/Nabs. And raiding with a kind of closer watch on the server since late Ulduar/ToC.

    Second, none of this is meant to diminish the effort here, getting people to try to be more serious about raiding. Simply trying to put to rest the "It's a lot of this pigheadedness - the refusal to say "no, I need to swallow my pride and raid with that guy from Requiem (or wherever)", that is causing these guilds to slowly disband and transfer off." thing.

    Alright, so. I honestly don't agree with the idea of "You know those guys you don't want to raid with? Yeah go raid with them." If that were how this server wanted to raid, lets go redwings, Requiem, Ravenfails Finest, etc, would've been raiding together. Most of us are people who can tolerate each other, and sometimes even talk to each other, but not in a raiding environment.

    This isn't because we don't want to progress, it is because a lot of us have raided with each other, and have seen how each individual is outside of raiding. Some people just don't want to put themselves to being in an environment that they don't enjoy. There comes a point where you need to weigh the options. Unfortunately, this means a lot of our higher tier raiders left due to the only other high tier raiders, didn't want to raid with one another.

    That being said, the top guilds of Cataclysm were recruiting at the end of Cataclysm, and into Mists, and simply were unsuccessful in finding raiders. How do I know this? Well, they're kind of dead.
    Just overall, those who are left on Ravencrest most likely do not want to raid progression content, or do not want to do so at the time I'm posting this. Maybe something will spring up from this, who knows.

    But as a player who has been individually going and whispering players, offering advice, attempting to get other players interested in the raid team I was involved in, etc., this server has just proven itself to unfortunately be a lot more casual than it once was. Not that it is a bad thing, to each their own. You just kind of have to accept what you get, you're not going to make a raider out of someone who simply doesn't want to be one, and be successful. And if it doesn't work out here, then there isn't much to do about it as someone who wants to progress, except look elsewhere. Which a lot of people have.
    Edited by Elbbarcs on 1/10/2013 9:12 PM PST
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    90 Gnome Warlock
    13995
    "Sadly a select few cannot make an entire server spark with the desire to do their best. It's an individual thing and quite frankly, makes me sad."
    "Some feel it is the common person who is easily content with mediocrity of a job half done. More people need to take pride in what they do!"
    "There is talent hidden on the server. It just needs that push to be shown."
    --Quotes from me talking to someone about how this server is bad.

    There are some people who may have the natural talent for a class they may have never played, even when the play styles are very similar. Who knows, I could be amazing at playing a rogue and not know it due to me not leveling a rogue to cap to attempt to measure my abilities.

    Heck, I aided in teaching Req's shadowpriest how to warlock and he ended up being a better warlock than me and he LOVED the play style of warlocks. Or maybe I'm just bad at being a warlock. I still considered him a rival at the class and always sought to outperform him.

    There may be people who are good at healing but only DPS all the time. People need to take a chance, try a new style and they may actually like it. Improvement comes from constantly pushing yourself. Never rest on the plateaus, continue climbing the mountains and when you reach the peak, find a higher mountain to climb.
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    90 Orc Warrior
    11230
    Please take a look at - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7592641105#1

    Just some of my general thoughts and suggestions on how to improve raiding.
    Edited by Camirex on 1/11/2013 1:57 PM PST
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    100 Gnome Rogue
    9715
    I think one of the biggest problems that has caused some of the "fail" so to speak is the advent of LFR. You can be undergeared for LFR yet still steamroll through the mechanics of the fights, and this does not prepare players for the 10 man raids where following the mechanics are essential. This tends to push failure rates up as mistakes that can be hidden during an LFR can quickly wipe out a 10 man raid. If the player cannot adapt quick enough, the raid suffers.

    LFR was created to help the non-elite raider see end content. The problem with that, is now everyone gets to see end game content. Why should people learn the mechanics of the 10 main raids when they can see the same thing during LFR? I know it sounds rather cynical, but its the truth.

    Gamers Trust is by no means an elite raiding guild. We never have had the desire to be one. Heck, During Cata was the first time that we as a guild have EVER cleared a normal raid as a guild during that expansion. (dont get too excited, we did it after all the nerfs) What we did have were about 12-14 people who popped in and out each week who really enjoyed gnashing our teeth together as we all learned the mechanics of the fights, fought through endless weeks of banging our heads and grinding for epic daggers, to finally as a group have the sense of accomplishment to have weathered the storm and completed the full raid. Several of our raiders have been long time and very talented raiders, while several others are much much much more casual and take a much longer time to learn the mechanics. I would rather raid with people who I enjoy talking to and being around as opposed to raiding with an elitist jackass who does forget this is only a game. (don't get me wrong, I certainly can fall into that elitist jackass category) I play the game to relax and unwind, so I find it more enjoyable to play with the more casual players, especially when those players get to see the results of months of work be a successful raid completion.

    In several prior expansions, I have raided 5-6 nights a week with three different classes (although rogue will always be my favorite) and enjoyed it tremendously. Unfortunately, real life intrudes as it often does and I find that my desire to #1 grind rep incessantly to gear and then #2 spend numerous hours a night learning the new content just doesnt fit my current availble time. I have seen this with many former raid friends lately.

    Alright, I think that's enough ( ) for one thread. Happy hunting.
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    90 Orc Death Knight
    11415
    I think one of the biggest problems that has caused some of the "fail" so to speak is the advent of LFR. You can be undergeared for LFR yet still steamroll through the mechanics of the fights, and this does not prepare players for the 10 man raids where following the mechanics are essential. This tends to push failure rates up as mistakes that can be hidden during an LFR can quickly wipe out a 10 man raid. If the player cannot adapt quick enough, the raid suffers.

    LFR was created to help the non-elite raider see end content. The problem with that, is now everyone gets to see end game content. Why should people learn the mechanics of the 10 main raids when they can see the same thing during LFR? I know it sounds rather cynical, but its the truth.

    Gamers Trust is by no means an elite raiding guild. We never have had the desire to be one. Heck, During Cata was the first time that we as a guild have EVER cleared a normal raid as a guild during that expansion. (dont get too excited, we did it after all the nerfs) What we did have were about 12-14 people who popped in and out each week who really enjoyed gnashing our teeth together as we all learned the mechanics of the fights, fought through endless weeks of banging our heads and grinding for epic daggers, to finally as a group have the sense of accomplishment to have weathered the storm and completed the full raid. Several of our raiders have been long time and very talented raiders, while several others are much much much more casual and take a much longer time to learn the mechanics. I would rather raid with people who I enjoy talking to and being around as opposed to raiding with an elitist jackass who does forget this is only a game. (don't get me wrong, I certainly can fall into that elitist jackass category) I play the game to relax and unwind, so I find it more enjoyable to play with the more casual players, especially when those players get to see the results of months of work be a successful raid completion.

    In several prior expansions, I have raided 5-6 nights a week with three different classes (although rogue will always be my favorite) and enjoyed it tremendously. Unfortunately, real life intrudes as it often does and I find that my desire to #1 grind rep incessantly to gear and then #2 spend numerous hours a night learning the new content just doesnt fit my current availble time. I have seen this with many former raid friends lately.

    Alright, I think that's enough ( ) for one thread. Happy hunting.


    i would have to honestly agree, LFR was a great idea(so that people could see content) but it was just to easy and made people think "o this is easy, then how could the next difficult be harder"so they dont try

    and my greatest time raiding wasn't downing a heroic boss, it was downing normal BWD with my friends(after nerfs and during cata), we all felt great because we all did work hard to achev that, we all where pretty happy with one another even if it wasn't heroic nef that we downed
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    90 Troll Rogue
    12295
    You can't really blame LFR for why this server is terrible.

    It was bad LOOOONNNGGGG before even LFD was a thing. It was bad from the start. This server has been called Ravenfail since TBC.

    Only one guild actually cleared all of TBC before Wrath came out. And that guild left the server over 2 months ago.

    Just face it, everyone that was ever decent either can't commit to raiding, has transferred off, or just plain doesn't wanna deal with carrying awful players.
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    90 Undead Priest
    9780
    I would like to audition for a guild. I want to kill internet monsters.
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    MVP
    100 Orc Warrior
    10390
    01/14/2013 01:54 PMPosted by Texxas
    I would like to audition for a guild. I want to kill internet monsters.


    I think I can get you into the guild "Triumphant Return".
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    90 Troll Druid
    15205
    #Ravencrest
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    90 Human Hunter
    9015
    #YOLO
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