Making Rets Desirable in RBG's.

90 Human Paladin
4340
So, I know a lot has been thrown around in regards to how to improve our ability to pvp. We can talk about CC's, survivability, burst vs. survivability, and the healing nerf all day. But, I want to focus on one idea: Making Rets desirable for RBG's.

First of all, one might ask, does it really matter if we're desirable in RBG's?
YES, YES, YES!

If we are not desirable in RBG's, then our class becomes underrepresented in the brackets, is unable to pug with other equally geared teams, and we, as a class, don't ever get our T2 weapons and never get on par with the DK's, Warriors, Locks, Priests, Hunters, Mages, and just about every other class that is more desirable in RBG's.

What makes a class desirable in RBG's in the first place? Two things.
1. Awesome Shiny Cool Abilities that CHANGE the playing field.
2. Massive damage.

Let me start with our damage.
Our damage is ok, but obviously not massive. We have substantial burst, but it is simply not on par with other classes like Shamans, Locks, Mages, Hunters and DK's. Our sustained is even worse. But this has already been retread a hundred times on this board, so I just want to say one thing about AoE.

AoE damage? Really? discussing AoE? yup!
For me personally, I feel as though one of my greatest contributions as a Ret Paladin in RBG's is to "spin the flag," as it were. In other words, go with Seal of Righteousness and spam Hammer of Righteousness and Divine storm to ensure that NO one caps that flag as long as I'm around. It takes some effort, it doesn't look good on the scoreboards, but it wins games. I feel like ALL of these abilities should get a flat 15% buff in damage. It wouldn't be game breaking, it wouldn't make us OP, and it wouldn't even put us anywhere near DK's for dot damage. Just a simple buff that would help make us a little scarier in large groups.

Now, on to the shiny cool stuff that Ret's don't have...
DK's get Gorefiends grasp
Mages get Ring of Frost
Boomies get Solar Beam
Warriors get Mortal Strike plus a crap ton of other stuff that is getting nerfed thankfully.
Rogues and Ferals get stealth
Locks can pretty much blow !@#$ up.
Spriests have dispel AND are surprisingly bursty
Hunters can stay alive and their pets are great at preventing sap caps.
Monks are getting "Ring of Peace" (omg have you read about that yet? christ...)

What do we need?
We need a game changer. We need something that makes everyone go... "yeah, we could really use that awesome Retribution ability"

And what do I propose?
MASS Hammer of Justice!

We don't have to call it MASS Hammer of Justice, but that's what it should do in effect.
10 yd AoE Stun. Put it on a 2 minute CD. and, most important of all, replace Burden of Guilt in the Talent tree and make BoG BASELINE.

This would give us a NICE group ability that would be unique to our spec and that is in great taste with our play style. We would have to talent into it, so in order to get it we'd have to give up 30s HoJ's and Repentence. Also, it makes more sense on that spot on the talent tree because it's a stun style CC in the same slot as all the other stun style CCs.

Is BoG baseline OP?
No. Simply not. Paladin's are one of the worst gap closers in the game. Having BoG AND a 30s HoJ would NOT break our class in Arenas. Our big burst would still be on a long cool down, and we would actually be on par with most other classes in the game as far as CC's go (ok ok, you can buff Enhance Shammies).

So, to sum it up:
Buff our AoE abilities by 15%
Make Burden of Guilt baseline.
Replace Burden of Guilt with a 2 minute AoE stun in the flavor of HoJ.

Oh, one final idea. I'm a bit too ADD to go back and edit it so that it makes sense, but Mass HoJ talent should be structured so that it acts differently for each spec. It should do something AoE and defense oriented for Prot, and something AoE and healing oriented for Holy. That way Rets don't get our cool ability taken away when everyone starts screaming about Holy's being OP. ;)

Let me know what you guys think!
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90 Human Paladin
7020
I think this sounds solid.

I only RBG on my Resto Shaman, so my opinion might not matter as much, but i'll toss my 2 cents in anyway.

I understand what Blizzard is trying to do with Ret. It seems like you do, too. I view Ret as basically a DPS/Healing spec. Not many classes can burst like we can (no, it's not the best burst in the game) and offer as much support as we do all at the same time. Yes, Elemental Shamans can do some nasty burst provided that RNG is on their side, but they can really only do so much on the support side of the battlefield. It's a big if, but if Blizzard can figure out a way to fix the issues with Ret (your ideas are a step in the right direction) then I truly think Ret will be one of the most unique specs in the game. They either need to buff our sustained damage or make our support utilities so great that it makes up for our lack of sustained damage.

This, of course, is all my personal opinion. Some will disagree, but I actually enjoy supporting my teammates. Hand of Freedom here, Hammer of Justice there, a couple Selfless Healers here and there. It's nice knowing that I have been the main reason our FC was able to survive the INC. I just hate when you get into those tussles and your CDs are down, so you are basically just trying to survive until backup comes. Other classes don't have that same issues.
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90 Human Paladin
6885
Honestly, Mass aoe HOJ would be Op as !@#$ in combination with Blinding light. Were not all highlord bolevar.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9520
It would be nice to make Rets a little more wanted in RBGs. I'm not sure what would be the answer to it. MASS HOJ did make me laugh a bit though when I read it in my mind. But tbh if you compare that to solar beam it's actually less ridiculous and is counter-able (mass dispel).

I really like BOG being baseline... that would be such a nice change not only for RBGs but for all aspects of PvP that I feel like Rets need.
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90 Human Paladin
13270
I would like to see imancipate remove all snares instead of just one, Divine Purpose or BoG baseline, increased dmg from HoW when target is below 20%, and just give us the old Sacred Shield back. Maybe not all of those changes, but one can wish...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5110
01/15/2013 01:55 AMPosted by Vod
Honestly, Mass aoe HOJ would be Op as !@#$ in combination with Blinding light. Were not all highlord bolevar.


Shockwave - 40s Cooldown (5.2), down to 20 if hits more than 4 targets.
Intimidating Shout - 1min cooldown, 8s fear, have a chance of not breaking from damage.

Compare those two with a 2min CD AoE stun and a 2min incapacitation effect that breaks from any damage, doesnt make secondary targets go 40yrd away and only last for 6s.

I'm not saying it wont be OP, but its not that big of a deal. A warrior still has 20s charge with a 3s stun (+ snare in 5.2) + 5s range stun on a 30s CD (which doesnt get wasted if the target is immune to), if he/she wants.

I personally dont like this idea though. And btw, if it is "specific to our spec", then it shouldnt "replace Burden of Guilt as a talent". Although Judgment should proc all seals, not only Seal of Truth, thus making BoG baseline for ret/prot (since Holy doesnt have SoJ).

The problem is, as long as there is a Holy, we wont be able to do nothing special, only bring more utilities. Its sad, but true. The only way people will want us in RGBs and that blizz will consider making it, is to make us dangerous in more scenarios than just "Oh, he has red wings and a shiny guardian, fear him or just let him play a little bit? Nah *fear*.". Both by increasing our survivability or damage or self/off healing capabilities. Our mobility wont be as good as any other melee class anyway, I dont understand why we should only be dangerous in 3-3min if someone doesnt have any defensive CD or cc (which in RGBs its pretty difficult to happen).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6645
I'm happy playing the 'support' role but let's be honest here..
If we want to be RBG viable then we need more than just utility (especially considering hpallys bring the same utility and majority of our utility is dispellable anyway).
We either need a massive increase to damage to be competitive to other hard hitting melee OR we need a solid increase to our healing ability so people would take ret as a 'support healer with good damage burst' capabilities.
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90 Human Paladin
8755
I wonder if there is a living person that thinks: "Hey, we can bring to our serious RBG an Lock, Rogue, SPriest, DK, Mage or Ret... let's BRING RET! He'll bring Damage/Utility/CC that will make the diference and help us win for sure!".

What Ret will do? BoP people so they can't physical hit, take full magic damage and die? Bubble himself than 8 secs from that if he's lucky die since has no other significant defensive CD? Deal some massive damage or bring something like death grip DKs do? Do some area CC to peel like SPriest/Lock? Hold a healer for the kill like a Rogue?

2 Holy Palas is better than a Holy and a Ret on RBG. Bring same utility and Holy damage is not that bad if he tries to. I'm serious. Need fixing, there's no way to deny.
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