Holy Paladin and Eternal Flame

90 Human Paladin
6100
Just curious from paladins with more raiding experience then me, looking at logs I see every top parsing holy paladin's logs eternal flame is the top heal. I try to eternal flame, it just doesn't seem efficient and I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong. My guild just recently swapped from 10 mans to 25 mans and for example on Garalon top holy paladins use eternal flame, I don't see how it is better than LoD spam which is what I was doing. I tried ef blanketing and my numbers were really low is it because I don't have 4 set? Here's our kill log if anyone would enlighten me.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/cqy31bsm0k3vqcf0/analyze/hd/source/?s=4930&e=5344
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6045
So I'm new to Pally healing (used to heal with a Priest and Druid) but I'm by far no expert, I'm just guessing here since I haven't done much healing with the Pally yet (but I've been reading a lot), and what I think they might be doing is putting Eternal flame on more targets using less HP (1-2 HP instead of all 3), that way you get the HoT on more people for less HP. Like I said that's just a guess. I don't know a lot yet, and I'm not sure if that would be better than using LoD but I was considering it earlier. So...that's all I've got. Anyone experienced let us know?
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100 Draenei Paladin
14025
The tier bonuses (either the PvP one, or preferably the PvE one) help a lot.

Also, the typical caveats apply - topping meters isn't your only goal, blanketing isn't always the best way to do things, etc etc. Yadda yadda.

Okay. Eternal Flame blanketing is pretty strong, but you still would want to store up for a 3HP LoD after each Crush if you're raid healing. It's true that you don't always need to save up for a 3 HP EF, although technically doing so is usually the highest raw HPS.

I really don't feel that LoD spam is the right way to go about things on that fight though. Then again, I'm literally ALWAYS assigned to follow around the kiters on Garalon (and usually am part of the rotation myself), so I haven't gotten much of a chance to test it out. My hunch though is that leaning more on EF would be the wiser way to do things.

Honestly, normal Garalon with 6 healers isn't a terribly big throughput check if you're doing the fight properly, and you seem to have 6 pretty skilled healers at least based on the HPS values on that fight.
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90 Human Paladin
9920
I have spent too much time writing/rewriting this post
Basically I am a 10man healer, 498ilvl 9/16h
EF (with my gear, not including procs/raid buffs since i paused dailies to type this) = 1HP initial 23k heal, 14 ticks of 3k heals, mastery doing work, total of 93k heals over 30s, +33k heals that wouldve gone to beacon target
Makes it around 4.2k hps

I don't have 4pc (!@#$ing vanq tokens keep dropping) so I can usually keep 4 of these going pretty easy, but the big reason why its better than LoD is because each individual heal has a chance to crit, and because of DIVINE PURPOSE, you get procs going and you can carry heals all day

So yes, for Garalon, just Beacon the target kiting w/ poison, and blanket the entire raid (situationally ofc) with 1HP EF and 90% of the time your 3 top heals will be: EF, Beacon, and Mastery Shield
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9395
Not to muddy the waters, but i'm not sure its cut and dried when to use 1 vs 3 hp on EF. The main problem is everything scales linearly...the power of both the up-front heal, and the hot. Beacon transfer percentages are fixed, and so are the absorb shields based on your mastery. Even the DP proc chance scales linearly with holy power.

What does this mean? Well I see two main issues here. The first being RNG with 1 hp EF casts. The proc chance is 25% at 3HP, or ~8.3% with 1HP. Theoretically given a large enough sample size you will get the same # of procs with either method, but personally I have found rng can really screw with you using 1hp. I have gone some fights with literally 1-2 procs using this method. Of course it can go the other way as well and proc like crazy, but the point is it is less reliable.

The second issue is raw output. Let's forget DP for the moment. casting three 1HP EF's takes 3 gcd's. You could have spent that same 3HP on one fully powered EF in 1 gcd. This tends to lead toward lower output using EF at 1hp over 3.

The counter-argument to this is that you can very easily overheal with 3HP EF, leading to much lower spell efficiency. Thoughts?
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90 Human Paladin
6100
Yeah I was just using normal garalon as an example it was very easy to heal and we shouldn't be 6 healing but we have a couple lacking healers. Tailias based of what you're saying for the most part ef blanket in off phases and make sure I have hammer + LoD for crushes? That seem right? That would seem to work for a lot of fights blanket then aoe heal big raid damage?
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9395
Keep in mind as well that just because something is the highest theoretical hps doesn't necessarily mean its the correct tool for every situation. I think that's what Tailias was getting at...sometimes LoD is needed, even if it's higher hps to use EF. That being said, if you can find a target that you expect to take damage on a semi-regular basis (which is not hard to do in this tier) it is a good candidate for EF, be it 1,2,or 3 hp. As long as you can limit overhealing, and use your beacon to good effect, EF will beat LoD in pure throughput every time.
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90 Human Paladin
6100
01/15/2013 04:43 PMPosted by Corvala
Keep in mind as well that just because something is the highest theoretical hps doesn't necessarily mean its the correct tool for every situation. I think that's what Tailias was getting at...sometimes LoD is needed, even if it's higher hps to use EF. That being said, if you can find a target that you expect to take damage on a semi-regular basis (which is not hard to do in this tier) it is a good candidate for EF, be it 1,2,or 3 hp. As long as you can limit overhealing, and use your beacon to good effect, EF will beat LoD in pure throughput every time.


I know that. I'm not new to holy paladins I just see EF pulling crazy 30% healing numbers and mine is at 12% tops... I just want to know how to use it more effectively.
Edited by Kisan on 1/15/2013 5:23 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9395
My point was, it is entirely possible that the people who have ranked are NOT using it properly, but instead abusing their highest throughput ability and counting on their fellow healers to pick up the slack as they pad meters. Just because you have a lower% EF healing then they do doesn't necessarily mean you should change. K /soapbox!

As far as how most pallies do it, yes you have the idea, spec into DP, babysit your HS cd, DL beacon'd target for ToR, even throw in a cs /HR where appropriate and mana allows...anything to keep the holy power flowing. Dump all that into EF and watch your output skyrocket.
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100 Draenei Paladin
14025
01/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Kisan
Yeah I was just using normal garalon as an example it was very easy to heal and we shouldn't be 6 healing but we have a couple lacking healers. Tailias based of what you're saying for the most part ef blanket in off phases and make sure I have hammer + LoD for crushes? That seem right? That would seem to work for a lot of fights blanket then aoe heal big raid damage?


Pretty much, yeah.

My point was, it is entirely possible that the people who have ranked are NOT using it properly, but instead abusing their highest throughput ability and counting on their fellow healers to pick up the slack as they pad meters. Just because you have a lower% EF healing then they do doesn't necessarily mean you should change. K /soapbox!

As far as how most pallies do it, yes you have the idea, spec into DP, babysit your HS cd, DL beacon'd target for ToR, even throw in a cs /HR where appropriate and mana allows...anything to keep the holy power flowing. Dump all that into EF and watch your output skyrocket.


This too. Lots of ranks are accomplished by underhealing the content or healing in really ridiculous manners that leave your raid uncovered in bad ways. Not to knock a lot of the ranking system, many of them are earned legitimately, but quite a few are "cheesed" especially the really ridiculously high numbers.
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100 Human Priest
7950
I looked into this myself and found something very interesting that improved my paladins HPS and is pretty good on mana.
you need two things:
1 - Eternal Flame talent
2 - Glyph of Beacon of Light
I use the Divine Purpose talent, but Holy Avenger works too

What I do is I created a macro (keep in mind this is a separate button than Beacon and Divine Light) the macro allows me to cast Beacon on my Vuh do target and immediate cast Divine Light which builds 1 charge of Holy Power [due to glyph, beacon is not on GCD also has no mana cost, 0 time is lost if you're spamming Divine Light. You will always build 1 charge from using Divine Light if using this simple macro].

With 3 charges I cast Eternal Flame, if Divine Purpose procs I cast another Eternal Flame on a different party member (keep in mind 50% of Eternal Flames HoT is transferred to beacon and the HoT also puts an Illuminated Healing absorb on that target).

I try to put Eternal Flame on as many targets as possible and move my Beacon around as I need. I change my beacon everytime I cast Divine Light so I can get that Holy Power, unless my tank is going to take a lot of damage. Doing this results in a lot of Holy Power pooling and huge heals from Eternal Flame and Illuminated Healing. AoE healing in this fashion is FAR better than Holy Radiance + Holy Shock healing in my opinion, bue to the 10yard range on Radiance. People may have other opinions, but this is what I do and what many great Paladins on WoL do.
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90 Human Paladin
2910
I'm not to raiding yet, but I've been healing dungeons and trying to get an idea down for a rotation.

I've been using Sacred Shield instead of Eternal Flame. Should I switch over and start using Eternal Flame instead?
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92 Blood Elf Paladin
15160
Sacred Shield & Eternal Flame trade effectiveness on a regular basis. Remember, as a healer you work for results, not for flare. Sacred Shield is a fantastic talent on fights where most of the damage is going on one target (a tank at any given time, for example), or when there isn't enough sustained damage being sprayed at your friends to warrant HoT maintenance.

It's also a godsend on Un'sok when the anti-heal parasite is on someone, even more so in conjunction with Hand of Purity.

I use it on Horridon, even. It catches a lot of Triple Punctures on the tank who's holding Horridon himself, and that mitigation means so much.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
The choice between Sacred Shield/Eternal Flame depends upon (a) what you use as your Holy Finisher and (b) where you're most likely to have someone die.

Sacred Shield: Stronger at smoothing out Tank damage spikes, drawback being that it requires a cooldown every 30 seconds.

Eternal Flame: More HPS than Sacred Shield, when taking Beacon/Crit/Mastery into account, but less useful when you are in a fight that demands Light of Dawn instead of Word of Glory. Stronger on fights with more raid damage.
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