T 15 Ret 4-piece

90 Blood Elf Paladin
18405
With all due respect, taking the 4-piece bonus to bake an RNG based attack into a multi-target attack that's a massive DPS loss when used as a single target attack seems shortsighted.

Who comes up with this crap? Primary statistic gains notwithstanding, it'd be more useful to use 2-piece/2-piece for single target DPS gain (read BOSSES - we are here to kill BOSSES, not top meters on trash).
Edited by Maxim on 1/18/2013 2:51 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
15050
? Are you referring to the divine storm proc? That they changed back to the original full holy damage TV proc?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
...You do realize that the DS-based bonus has already been reverted to the old TV_based bonus, yes? Since, like, yesterday?
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90 Human Paladin
9970
a) The lightning bolt dealt 255% weapon damage as nature, which is very close to the total value of a TV. A DS + a TV's worth of lightning is strictly superior to a TV, for single target. It would have been no change for cleave, since we use DS on two targets anyway.

b) They already said yesterday they're going back to the previous, Holy-damage-TV version of the set bonus. You're a bit late on this bandwagon (and posting it in the wrong forum and needlessly making a new thread for it, anyway).
Edited by Ravicana on 1/18/2013 2:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18405
a) The lightning bolt dealt 255% weapon damage as nature, which is very close to the total value of a TV. A DS + a TV's worth of lightning is strictly superior to a TV, for single target. It would have been no change for cleave, since we use DS on two targets anyway.

b) They already said yesterday they're going back to the previous, Holy-damage-TV version of the set bonus. You're a bit late on this bandwagon (and posting it in the wrong forum and needlessly making a new thread for it, anyway).


Regarding "B," no, I didn't realize they had already reverted this so, it becomes a non issue.

Regarding "A," are you seriously of the mind that having chance at a proc + a weak single target attack is outright better single target DPS than a single target attack that's guaranteed to land at roughly equivalent damage of the proc?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
The proc was 255% weapon as Nature, and 100% weapon as Holy, and percentage of the DS as Holy via mastery. So, yes, the DSBolt proc was strictly better than a mere TV.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
01/18/2013 03:07 PMPosted by Maxim
Regarding "A," are you seriously of the mind that having chance at a proc + a weak single target attack is outright better single target DPS than a single target attack that's guaranteed to land at roughly equivalent damage of the proc?

Yes. I'm not really sure why you would disagree, unless you're misunderstanding what it did.

The proc didn't *replace* the DS hit. You still got the DS, and the lightning bolt on top of that (which hits as hard as TV), so the proc allows you to replace a TV with a TV+DS, and so the proc itself adds about a DS worth of damage. DS deals a little over half as much damage as TV (that's why we switch to it at two targets), so that version of the 4pc added ~60% of a TV worth of damage. The pure-Holy-damage-TV version adds ~85% of a TV worth of damage, which is better, but not astronomically so.
And obviously, one would still use TV whenever you have Holy Power and the proc hasn't gone off. The DS lightning bolt version of the set bonus was a DPS gain for single-target, no question about it. The numbers weren't the problem (they're the last thing that gets adjusted, anyway), just the weird and clunky nature of it.
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90 Human Paladin
15050
The proc was 255% weapon as Nature, and 100% weapon as Holy, and percentage of the DS as Holy via mastery. So, yes, the DSBolt proc was strictly better than a mere TV.


But probably not better than a full Holy Damage TV
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
So, yes, the DSBolt proc was strictly better than a mere TV.


But probably not better than a full Holy Damage TV


Not even close, once you factor in Inq and the 2p Exo proc, and the fact that TV is 275% weapon before factoring in mob armor.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Definitely not better than the TV bonus, no. About 2/3 as good, all things considered. That's not a particularly strong criticism of the DS bonus, the TV bonus is just REALLY powerful. Balhale's initial sim pegged the TV bonus alone as comparable it to both t14 bonuses combined, without re-optimizing priority or including the synergy with the t15 2pc.

Being PTR, numbers are very subject to change, and Ghostcrawler's post implied that the Holy-damage TV bonus may not end up as strong as it first was.
Edited by Ravicana on 1/18/2013 3:32 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
Even if they gave us a 255% bolt proced by CS and attached to using TV, I'd be happy; what bothered me most was that we had to hit a button outside our normal ST priority; shuffling the priority is all well and good, and the 4p should still do that (bumping up CS in priority to fish for procs).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18405
My understanding of the mechanic was that it was a chance to proc on the next DS, not a chance to have a guaranteed 'bolt' on the next DS. If it's the former, as I initially read it as, then, no, not superior, but if it's the latter, then yes, I concede.

The other thing that bothered me about it was what Grognard brought up - that DS is not normally an ability in our single target rotation.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
12730
The repalced 4p procced a buff from using CS/HotR/(HoW?), but the buff was used by DS to add a bolt of lightning for nature damage.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10790
Well apparently they're changing it back.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/#_

"For Retribution, we were trying to emphasize what was once the most awesome spell in the Ret arsenal (Divine Storm) while reacting to some of the initial feedback that the first set bonus wasn't exciting. As often happens in cases like this, the players who liked the first set bonus and not the second have now offered their feedback. I want to stress that when this happens it's not a poll or a contest to see who can yell the loudest. We evaluate the feedback we get, weigh the strengths of the various arguments, and come to a decision. For 5.2 we're going to go back to the initial 4 pc set bonus of Templar's Verdict sometimes hitting for Holy damage. I also want to stress that anyone expecting said bonus to be a 20% DPS increase or something are going to be disappointed, so I hope that's not why you liked the bonus.

Incorporating Divine Storm into the single-target rotation, sometimes, is still a neat idea and the kind of thing we might do as a glyph or something in the future."
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90 Human Paladin
9970
i wonder what tv will be hitting for with all cds and inq up...

also doesnt this bonus kinda boost the value of divine purpose a bit? considering it might lead to less wasted procs, and all.

The proc alone increases TV's total damage by ~85%. In my current gear, I've seen TV crits as high as 200k (which is ~280k when you include mastery), so if my t14 set bonuses were magically traded for t15 set bonuses, that'd be almost 400k (over 500k, counting mastery). With t15 gear (better weapons, more strength, more mastery), even higher than that. So... yeah, pretty huge.

It doesn't look likely to much boost DP relative to HA/SW, no - DP would only let you avoid a wasted proc when you have a DP proc from your previous TV (25%), followed by a CS - something - something - CS and both CS proc the set bonus (40% * 40% = 16%). 25% * 16% would mean this happens 4% of the time, or about one in twenty-five CS pairs that don't already include a TV. However, it may diminish the value of Sanctified Wrath, since all that hammer-spamming makes it difficult to fit in CS. Hard to say for sure, yet.
Edited by Ravicana on 1/19/2013 6:35 PM PST
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