Pally Mana Management Question

90 Draenei Paladin
13330
From what I've read, holy paladins are supposed to be in a pretty good place right now in terms of mana. I'm constantly finding myself going OOM partway through fights and running on fumes for the rest of the encounter, though, and sometimes toward the end of fights, I'm literally sitting there spamming the Holy Shock or Holy Light button until I regen enough to cast something. I've even resorted to Gift of the Naaru on a couple occasions, despite how silly I feel using it instead of a "proper" healing spell. While I realize that I shouldn't be ending a fight with 75% of my mana bar, I also think that my regen/management should be enough to make it to the end of the fight comfortably, and it's not comfortable at the moment. I usually heal with a holy priest (of a comparable ilvl to me, and no interest in going disc); she and I tend to put up similar numbers on most fights, so I don't think it's a case of me being overly aggressive, stealing all the heals at the beginning only to run out of mana at the end, or of carrying a weaker healer. We don't have strict healing assignments, but I tend to focus more on the tanks while she focuses more on the raid, with both of us helping the other as needed. Tanks are always a pally and a bear, with the bear going kitty on one-tank fights. DPS varies from week to week.

While the obvious solution would be to get more spirit, I don't think there's much more gear that I can get until we start killing more bosses. We've cleared MV (only one Will kill so far; we got stuck on Elegon for a long time), killed Vizier in HoF a couple times, and are working on Blade Lord. I've been spending valor upgrading trinkets, shield, and boots (the armory doesn't seem to be showing these), but I'm not really sure where to go with it next as most everything else I have will be replaced once we get further in progression. I do realize that the sha-touched mace is better than the sword, but Empress refuses to give it to me (Would the normal mode mace from Will also be better than the LFR sword because of the spirit, if it drops, or should I stick with the sword until I get either the LFR or the normal Empress mace, given that normal Empress is still a ways off? I was using a blue weapon before I got the sword, so the sword is really the only option for now). I could swap a few gems for pure spirit ones, but I don't feel like ~400 spirit is going to make enough of a difference to keep me from running out of mana halfway through a fight. I have all five pieces of tier; normal hands from Sha, and LFR for the other four slots. I'm currently going off set with my chest because of the spirit/mastery on Chestplate of the Forbidden Tower, but I also have Six Pool's Open Helm, Paleblade Shoulderguards, Legplates of Sagacious Shadows, and Ambersmith Legplates if any of those would be a better choice (the only one I think I'd really consider as a possible side-grade/upgrade would be the legs from Feng).

As far as spell choice goes, I know Divine Light and Holy Radiance eat mana and try to limit them when not absolutely necessary. Looking at logs, my overhealing on Divine Light tends to be around 5-10% (and was even 0 on our first Will kill), so I don't think I'm using it excessively. Holy Radiance looks a little higher, but not to a level I'd consider excessive. I use Divine Plea generally around 75-80% mana, then on cooldown. I try to use throughput cooldowns like GoAK and Avenging Wrath when needed, as well as the various Hands (HoSac on tanks, HoP to prevent deaths on Attenuation, clear Wind Step, etc). I usually use Eternal Flame, Divine Purpose, and Light's Hammer, but do situationally switch to Sacred Shield, Holy Avenger, and Holy Prism.
Logs are here: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/97929/

This is my first tier raiding as a pally (previously a resto druid, and cleared post-nerf hDS as a resto shammy after the druid's group took a break), so I'm sure I still have more to learn, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything blatantly wrong, so I'm not sure how to manage mana better. While I know that as we progress further, things'll get easier (I won't have to ask for boomkin innervates on Will once the tanks get more practice dancing, for example), I also feel like I should be doing better at mana management on the fights we do have experience on (i.e., I shouldn't be sitting there waiting for enough mana to regen to cast something at the end of Stone Guard). Do any of the more experienced pallies out there have any tips for me? I'm not looking for "Tell people not to stand in stuff," or "Have the priest do this in this situation so you have less to heal," or other critiques for the rest of the group. I'm looking for ways I can improve as an individual healer so that I'm not sitting there at the end of a fight waiting for enough mana to cast something, going "Please don't die, tank, please don't die!" Any advice on specific fights would be welcome as well.

Thanks in advance. :D
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Well, the first big one I'd suggest is talenting into Divine purpose and using it to spread eternal flames around the raid. It makes for free, strong healing. (Not sure if that's what you already do when you have it talented.)

Have you been abusing the 4 set's holy power generation? Every hot tick from eternal flames transfers to your beacon target, so you can glyph beacon to be off the gcd and swap it around as needed to whoever needs healing.

Also... I can't help but notice that you use flash of light about 60 times in various encounters. That is probably THE biggest mana drain possible. After all, My 470 paladin doesn't oom on feng or stoneguard and he's significantly less geared than you are.

Holy radiance is generally a BIG nono unless most of the raid is stacked in one spot. Eternal flame blanketing is higher hps and eats no mana. This is especially true in 10 mans.

I'm sure some person who plays a paladin as a main will come in and give you more pointers, but that's really all i'm noticing.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13330
Also... I can't help but notice that you use flash of light about 60 times in various encounters. That is probably THE biggest mana drain possible. After all, My 470 paladin doesn't oom on feng or stoneguard and he's significantly less geared than you are.


Not sure where you're seeing this unless you're looking at Gara'jal. I only see 60 Flash of Lights once in an entire evening (which was a night we did Gara'jal), and never on a single encounter. Gara'jal has a built-in regen mechanic, isn't usually healed the same way as other bosses, and is actually one of the only two bosses I don't have mana problems on (the other being Spirit Kings). If you're not talking about Gara'jal, can you point out where you mean? I can't remember using it more than maybe two to three times at most in a fight besides on him, but I do admit that I'm less than perfect at reading logs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10555
I'm not the best at looking over logs and analyzing, and i do realize that its hard to look at small samples and evaluate as your overall playing style but a few things I felt i would change. First it seems as though, even though you have PvE 4piece, you are not using holy shock off cooldown. You are using it very often, however not maximizing its bonus.

I see you are on some fights attempting to melee to regenerate mana. One thing you have to keeep in mind is that if you have more than 2 EF rolling, you're unable to melee. Depending on the fight, you should be using crusader strike to build up holy power to help blanket the raid with EFs.

I'm looking particularly at your Blade Lord logs, as it seems to be the boss you are currently progressing on. In this fight it seems that you are using LoD often, which i assume is because of the strikes. One thing you should realize, is over the course of the full heal of EF, it heals more than LoD does. You should be putting EFs on people with the debuff constantly, and on the tanks. When stacking, as long as everyone is stacked, any further damage is usually only from the slow ticking dot. This means that you have roughly a minute to top everyone up. By burning mana trying to top players up quickly, and spending HP on LoD. You may feel like you're doing it correctly at the moment, however, you'll notice it in phase two when your mana is running on fumes.

Playing with a holy priest, you have to realize their strength is strong burst heals, followed by slow ticking hots (6 seconds). They are however very weak at spot healing. You can play to each others weakness, by spot healing with EF, and tank healing with beacon + EF. Don't worry about topping people up with this comp, unless required, such as before an unseen strike, crush, BEFORE rain of blades. Having everyone hovering around 80-90%, and having your EFs / EoLs ticking to get free healing is going to really help your mana issues.

Overall I can't really give you any advise without seeing you play. Are your wipes due to enrage? I can't remember what the enrage on that fight is, but i see a lot of 8 minutes. If you have any other questions I can maybe answer, send me a message.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13330
01/16/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Stevienash
I see you are on some fights attempting to melee to regenerate mana. One thing you have to keeep in mind is that if you have more than 2 EF rolling, you're unable to melee. Depending on the fight, you should be using crusader strike to build up holy power to help blanket the raid with EFs.


I'm only meleeing on Elegon, and only on the pillar phase once people are topped off and I don't have anything else to do. Other than that, I don't really feel like I have time to melee, and I generally hang back with the ranged group instead. Which fights in particular are good for crusader striking?

01/16/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Stevienash
I'm looking particularly at your Blade Lord logs, as it seems to be the boss you are currently progressing on. In this fight it seems that you are using LoD often, which i assume is because of the strikes. One thing you should realize, is over the course of the full heal of EF, it heals more than LoD does. You should be putting EFs on people with the debuff constantly, and on the tanks.


I've been trying to keep it on the tanks and the debuff people; maybe I need to focus on that more. I do occasionally run into the issue of EF falling off a tank when I don't have enough holy power to refresh it, but I think that's mostly when I've had Divine Purpose procs and refreshed them both at the same time, then used subsequent EFs on DPS and misjudged how long it takes to build up enough HP to refresh both tanks. I'm mostly trying to use LoD right after the strikes, as we're flying through the air, to at least get a small heal on everyone right away. Is it better to have EF on just a couple people rather than trying to stabilize everyone right away? Should I be doing 1-2HP EFs on more people right before, rather than 3HP EFs on just a few? Also, I tried using Holy Prism right after the strikes, but I'm currently feeling like I'd rather have Light's Hammer for phase 2 than Prism for phase 1.

01/16/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Stevienash
Are your wipes due to enrage? I can't remember what the enrage on that fight is, but i see a lot of 8 minutes. If you have any other questions I can maybe answer, send me a message.


Mostly due to people getting caught in tornados, which will get better with practice, and too many stacks of Intensify on Blade Lord (more of a dps issue than a healing one). I could understand having mana issues on him if he was the only one I was having problems on, but my mana seems to be in the same state regardless of the fight. Thanks for the tips on Blade Lord, though; I'll try them next time we're on him.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
01/16/2013 10:59 PMPosted by Stevienash
One thing you have to keeep in mind is that if you have more than 2 EF rolling, you're unable to melee.

Wait, why is this? I don't see it listed anywhere. Is it a hidden effect to stop Holy Paladins from parking in melee to use CS for HoP and Insight for a ton of mana?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10555
No, crusader strike is unaffected by this bug. A good fight to use crusader strike is really any fight you can get into the melee without messing people up. Blade Lord is a terrible fight for crusader strike, because Windstep focus on ranged, not where they are standing. If you stand in melee, you're going to windstep the whole melee group. The next boss, garalon, is amazing for CS. You can just follow the boss around when you're not kiting, and spam cs / hs / ef. Completely blanketing the raid will be amazing because constant damage vs a constant hot + absorb... You'll be doing 70k+ HPS without burning to much mana. Its really a holy pally fight. The problem with eternal flame, at least as far as i understand it, is each tick resets your melee swing. With three ticks going, it will constantly reset your melee swing before you're able melee. This has been a bug since 5.0, I'm not sure why blizzard hasn't addressed it seeing as there are many bug posts about it, and giving specific examples of when it is occurring.

To be honest, we three blade lord, because of luxury of good dps. I personally would rather 2 heal everything, just because 3 healing content leads to bored healers, which leads to dead tanks because i'm trying to finish solitaire rather than watch the raid. If i was two healing, i'm using pvp 4piece so it is a bit different, but i would be constantly building HP with HS, when tank takes big spikes, i would be doing direct DL to generate more HP. I would be placing beacon on tank, and start with spot healing random dps that gets windstepped. Next EF would be on tank, followed by any other random ranged who gets hit by tornado, or any other damage. I would continue this until the tank swap. I would continue just hotting up the raid, even players who are not taking damage, if i am at 5 HP, or i have a DP proc. If you throw an EF on someone, each tick will build up your absorb(each tick refreshes ^.^), capping out at around 40-50k *depending on your gear* These absorbs should help for those unseen strikes.
I honestly don't use my tier 90 talent very often on this fight, i do what you say, and drop LH at each end of the run, however this doesn't account for a lot of my healing. You will want to have people popping health stones and using defensives *you have divine protection for this part* Have your priest // whoever is bad at tornados take the locks portal which should be setup on the boss platform where he lands the first time, and at maximum distance. This will allow 5 players to quickly get to that, and click on it and teleport behind the boss without having to deal with tornados. Once the boss reaches 12%, the two tanks stay behind, and EVERYONE jumps in the slipstream and cruises to the other platforming. This is when you want to pop devo aura. This allows you to completely avoid dealing with tornadoes again.

You will probably want to lust on pull, burn as much as possible. Be sure people are calling out when Unseen strike cooldown is up, or nearly up, so they are on their toes to start stacking. Once you hit phase 2, have everyone stay stacked for a bit while you try and top people off. Maybe have your priest drop his second lightwell right at the landing zone, so it smart heals everyone while you're flying by. Top people up, and start running. I wouldn't try to focus too much on healing people as it is a pain in the rump to move, heal, and dodge twisters, especially as a holy pally. I normally just build up HP on myself, and throw EF on people when i get a chance.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10555
It also looks like you're using HL a lot. Almost spamming it so you have something to do. It really doesn't cost that much mana, but a lot of the healing, at least in my experience, tends to be overhealing. I would rather let the person dip a little further and either heal with a HS or an EF. I looked at like an overview of one my nights, i used Holy Light 20 times. You used it like 100 times in first two fights of MSV. You're playing with a holy priest, a class filled with smart heals, with CoH, DI proc'd PoM, Lightwell, and to some extent Divine Hymm. Trying to spend 2 seconds to heal someone for 30k isn't worth it, when one of his 5-6 targets from CoH///PoM heals for the exact same, and is nearly instant.
Edited by Stevienash on 1/17/2013 1:12 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
01/16/2013 07:35 PMPosted by Amphibelle
I've even resorted to Gift of the Naaru on a couple occasions, despite how silly I feel using it instead of a "proper" healing spell.


Lets begin here. Why oh why would you feel silly using a healing spell to heal someone? Sure it isn't much but sometimes its exactly the buffer you need. I use it on cd, the same as I use lifeblood on cd. One GotN = mana not spent on a DL.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-arxxljysgx72w30v/sum/healingDone/?s=8933&e=9247

And also, did you really bmah the Sollerets of Instability and socket it with straight spirit forgoing your socket bonus of >.> spirit? IMO I would swap that out with a Zen Wild Jade Your mana issues aren't coming from gear, they are coming from forgetting to properly use your Divine Plea. You should be popping your DP at 80% mana and then on cd after that. Tip: Get a couple EFs rolling, pop Divine Plea. Put a hand on whoever needs it most and then Healthstone/Divine Protection or EF yourself and stop healing until your buff is gone, otherwise, you are just wasting mana.

01/16/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Amphibelle
I can't remember using it more than maybe two to three times at most in a fight besides on him, but I do admit that I'm less than perfect at reading logs.


You used it 4 times on SG, which if you had it glyphed would be understandable, but you don't. The FoL glyph is pretty powerful on Tsulong during day phase, and I use it for a few other fights just for !@#$s and giggles.

01/16/2013 11:31 PMPosted by Amphibelle
Also, I tried using Holy Prism right after the strikes, but I'm currently feeling like I'd rather have Light's Hammer for phase 2 than Prism for phase 1.


I like Holy Prism for that fight, because LH does nothing if your people don't make it to the boss :( sadly, I'm one of those people. I also like it because it's instant burst healing and sometimes, people are reeeeeaaaaalllly low when they get to me.

01/17/2013 01:02 AMPosted by Stevienash
It also looks like you're using HL a lot. Almost spamming it so you have something to do. It really doesn't cost that much mana, but a lot of the healing, at least in my experience, tends to be overhealing. I would rather let the person dip a little further and either heal with a HS or an EF.


I hardly use HL, I do however, use and abuse my 4piece to my hearts content. Which is what you should be doing.

01/16/2013 11:37 PMPosted by Krinu
Wait, why is this? I don't see it listed anywhere. Is it a hidden effect to stop Holy Paladins from parking in melee to use CS for HoP and Insight for a ton of mana?


Your EF ticks cause your swing timer to reset making you unable to melee if you have several up at once. Its a bug and they won't fix it :(

A few other things that I didn't know where to fit in:

LoD refreshes the current Illuminated Healing absorb on all targets it affects that currently have the shield.

I like to have 5 HoPo waiting for me even before we pull. So I usually shield the tank and then I have 5 HoPo free of cost right out the gate as well as a 140k shield.

Don't be afraid to use your hands. I'm constantly Sac'ing people. Sometimes I do it for lifesaving, sometimes I do it for mitigation to save mana and sometimes I BoP the tank so I can listen to the laughter in vent.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13160
01/16/2013 07:35 PMPosted by Amphibelle
From what I've read, holy paladins are supposed to be in a pretty good place right now in terms of mana. I'm constantly finding myself going OOM partway through fights and running on fumes for the rest of the encounter, though, and sometimes toward the end of fights, I'm literally sitting there spamming the Holy Shock or Holy Light button until I regen enough to cast something.


(Rest snipped)

I think the problem is you're misunderstanding what "pretty good place" means. I get the feeling you think that means you can just do whatever you want and not have to worry about mana. That couldn't be further from the truth. "Pretty good place" means that if you are smart about which spells you cast and when, then you should have enough mana to finish the fight assuming things don't go south for whatever reason.

The issue is either a) you are casting the wrong spells or b) your raid is taking too much damage forcing you to cast spells that you can't afford to cast that often.

P.S. - just curious how much those boots cost you on the Black Market Auction House. I should check mine more often.
Edited by Evannder on 1/17/2013 12:17 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13330
I think the problem is you're misunderstanding what "pretty good place" means. I get the feeling you think that means you can just do whatever you want and not have to worry about mana. That couldn't be further from the truth. "Pretty good place" means that if you are smart about which spells you cast and when, then you should have enough mana to finish the fight assuming things don't go south for whatever reason. P.S. - just curious how much those boots cost you on the Black Market Auction House. I should check mine more often.


That's the problem; I've been running out of mana about halfway through and finishing the fight on fumes. I was asking for feedback on what I'm doing wrong that would be causing that. :D Boots started at 20k, had a few bids before I put mine in, and if I remember right, ended up being around 25k.

So, Mogu'shan Vaults tonight: I did three things different to see how it would feel. One, I added Echo of Light to my VuhDo display so that I could see who it was on, and if that person was over about 75% with no imminent damage, I resisted the urge to top them off. Two, I made Power Auras to tell me when Divine Plea is up and when my mana is below 80% (still trying to figure out how to combine both of those into one aura, but two separate ones is better than nothing). I don't think my Divine Plea usage before was horrible, but better safe than sorry. Third, I tried to reduce my Holy Light casts. I did the math on it, and if I was using it 100 times on two fights where someone else was using 20, that's roughly 40 extra per boss. 40 casts times 7.5k per cast works out to 300k mana in one fight. I think that's a habit that carried over from my druid background; if I didn't have anything else to do as a druid, I'd spam Nourish on the tank to keep Lifebloom refreshed, Harmony up, and help with the tank healing a little, but Nourish was pretty much mana-neutral, especially towards the end of Cata. Even trying to rationalize using Holy Light by saying it adds the mastery bubble and transfers to the Beacon target, it's not anywhere near as mana-neutral as Nourish was (that 300k number really stuck out to me; that's an entire mana bar). Making those three changes, mana felt MUCH better. It was sort of a messy night (people standing in stuff on Stone Guard, tank lagging out and falling through the floor on Elegon, etc), but overall it felt a lot better, and we cleared the entire instance in one night for the first time. I think it'll take some practice to break the Holy Light habit (I think that was the biggest cause, in retrospect), but I'm definitely feeling better about it now.

Thanks to all who responded!
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
Glad you're feeling better about it!

Yes, Holy Light is an issue. It is actually a semi-serious heal - much more so than, say, Nourish - with a cost to match. (Note, however, that even a 'mana-neutral' heal is a mana loss when you're not at full mana - even when you're on a spec whose cheap heal is mana-neutral, casting it vs. not casting it should still be a conscious decision.)
Edited by Kaels on 1/18/2013 12:18 AM PST
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