Int plate with no spirit

90 Orc Shaman
11830
01/08/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Keirisonis
Or it might be something to do with eternal flame.

Yep.
http://www.totemspot.com/images/hastebreakpointcards/paladinholy.gif
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Let's please stop with the sweeping generalizations on spirit plateaus. there is no such thing as a general, verifiable spirit cap.

01/07/2013 02:01 PMPosted by Tailias
If you're implying that you should be looking for ways to drop reasonable amounts of Spirit for reasonable amounts of throughput stats (preferably Intellect, because as a Paladin, our throughput secondaries don't come close), then that's definitely a good point, and frankly kind of common sense.

This exactly. Find the amount of spirit your playstyle, the needs of your raid, and your healing composition require, and once you hit it start stacking more throughput stats. There is no gold medal for starving yourself on regen because "that guy over there said I should only need X spirit"
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
01/08/2013 03:27 PMPosted by Mahanik
Or it might be something to do with eternal flame.

Yep.
http://www.totemspot.com/images/hastebreakpointcards/paladinholy.gif


I never really go for breakpoints on my healers... Doesn't seem worth it for that much haste this tier. I'd much prefer some stacked mastery and a healthy amount of spirit if i can get it. Perhaps next tier will change my mind, or the next.

Now the 20% mark i might enjoy. Being able to bomb a divine light between boss swings (mana permitting) seems pretty damn enjoyable.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/08/2013 11:46 AMPosted by Tharna
for a holy pally you will never need more than 13k anywhere in this tier, everything should start going into mastery or the 25% haste threshhold at this point. also that remark was made at the op, who is a paladin. other healers be darnd this thread is about healing plate ie holy pallies.


You never say WHY 13k is a hard cap. Or where you're testing this. Or how you know that every single raiding Holy Paladin, in 10m 25m every raid comp every raid difficulty, even in the raid encounters that you haven't killed yet will never need more than 13k Spirit.

How do you know?
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90 Pandaren Monk
8130
Probably because the only people who gain from that much spirit comparing to gaining throughput stats instead, is rshams', largely because of the bonus MTT gives to the other healers. I've raided with a holy paladin running 7500 and 11000 spirit and in both cases, they never had mana trouble. At 13000, I have to imagine there is a mana management or meter padding problem involved here. (For any healer who isnt an rsham, frankly.)
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/09/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Astråios
Probably because the only people who gain from that much spirit comparing to gaining throughput stats instead, is rshams', largely because of the bonus MTT gives to the other healers. I've raided with a holy paladin running 7500 and 11000 spirit and in both cases, they never had mana trouble. At 13000, I have to imagine there is a mana management or meter padding problem involved here. (For any healer who isnt an rsham, frankly.)


13000, with avg'd trinket procs, means around what - 10500 or 11000 baseline? That's not terribly high, and frankly I don't think it's a sign of poor mana management or meter padding.

I'm glad that your 7500 baseline spi Holy Paladin could heal effectively with 3k less Spirit than most. Keep in mind, though, that just because you CAN run with lower Spirit doesn't mean that more Spirit is unnecessary or useless, or that every raid/raid comp can accomodate a Holy Paladin who gears that way. In fact, it takes an unusual healing comp/style and a very high amount of skill to do heroic modes with that sort of gearing. (I don't find that I have either, hence having 12.5-13k Spirit or so including trinket procs.)
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I've never understood people who make it a mark of talent to run unnecessarily low spirit builds. It's as if they somehow get some ego bump from being "better" then all those other people running with high(er) spirit. Healing is about having enough throughput to keep your raid alive while not running oom. What good are throughput stats if you are running on fumes at the end?

I understand that with optimal playstyle, spell selection, and minimal overhealing, you can afford to run low spirit. I also understand that healing, especially progression, is rarely predictable. Many times the place a good healer really shines is the ability to swiftly react to the unexpected and save a life. Often this action will be the difference between a wipe and a kill. I want to be conservative enough in my mana that I can afford that odd flash heal. If that means im 1-2k spirit over what I "should" have, then fine by me. This isn't about the numbers alone, its about dependable performance.
Edited by Corvala on 1/10/2013 1:39 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
It does undeniably require a lot of skill to limit your overheal while still putting out a reasonable amount of output. Whether that's better or worse than applying that skill towards maximizing your throughput without worrying about conservation/regen as much is debatable - I tend towards worse, but I guess there are some cases where the extra bit of Mastery/Int during heavy healing phases outweighs the fact that you're spending a much, much larger part of the fight casting Holy Light and letting other healers pick up your slack.

YMMV I suppose. But I still maintain that anybody who says there is a hard spirit "cap", especially as low as 13k, is full of baloney sauce.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
01/09/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Astråios
Probably because the only people who gain from that much spirit comparing to gaining throughput stats instead, is rshams', largely because of the bonus MTT gives to the other healers. I've raided with a holy paladin running 7500 and 11000 spirit and in both cases, they never had mana trouble. At 13000, I have to imagine there is a mana management or meter padding problem involved here. (For any healer who isnt an rsham, frankly.)


"this one time I raided with someone who had 7500 spirit, therefore nobody should have more than that"
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
01/10/2013 04:54 PMPosted by Taymage
Probably because the only people who gain from that much spirit comparing to gaining throughput stats instead, is rshams', largely because of the bonus MTT gives to the other healers. I've raided with a holy paladin running 7500 and 11000 spirit and in both cases, they never had mana trouble. At 13000, I have to imagine there is a mana management or meter padding problem involved here. (For any healer who isnt an rsham, frankly.)


"this one time I raided with someone who had 7500 spirit, therefore nobody should have more than that"


This one time, at band camp, this orc paladin totally managed to heroic leap, then use his demonic teleport to tea bag a gnome. It was epic.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13225
01/09/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Tailias
You never say WHY 13k is a hard cap.
because past 13k you're going to have way too much mana than you know what to do with, which will just lead to meter padding.

01/09/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Tailias
Or where you're testing this.
I'm testing this in raids, duh. where else do i test competitive healing?

01/09/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Tailias
Or how you know that every single raiding Holy Paladin, in 10m 25m every raid comp every raid difficulty, even in the raid encounters that you haven't killed yet will never need more than 13k Spirit.
because unless your group is doing the fight horribly the damage will never be high enough that you within YOUR roll will need more than this. nobody else does a holy pallys job like a holy pally, that's why basically all the top guilds have a pally in their rosters.

01/09/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Tailias
How do you know?
Wizard.

01/10/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Tailias
13000, with avg'd trinket procs, means around what - 10500 or 11000 baseline? That's not terribly high
it's as high as it needs to be. anything more is overkill

seriously with the logic in your argument (or lack therof) you may as well argue to get more expertise past 7.5% as melee so you can hit the boss from the front.

01/09/2013 12:48 PMPosted by Astråios
the only people who gain from that much spirit comparing to gaining throughput stats instead, is rshams
QFT
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
because past 13k you're going to have way too much mana than you know what to do with, which will just lead to meter padding.


I'm testing this in raids, duh. where else do i test competitive healing?


This hasn't been my experience. "I find something to be true, and because it's true for me in my particular situation, anybody who disagrees is a bad" is a poor argument if you can call it that.

I also don't understand the "meter padding" strawman. If you have enough mana to sit there and spam Holy Radiance non-stop, sure, ease off on the Spirit - also, give me whatever mana-hacks you have. If you are like me and opt to do more than the bare-bones minimum of healing and instead like to keep people alive to the best of your ability, rather than playing the "Will this person die if I only cast Holy Light?" game, then you have a good use for more Spirit than is "strictly" necessary.

There is no one, true hard cap on Spirit. If you think there is, then you're crazy. Yes, there is such a thing as too much, but trying to quantify it across the board for everyone is lunacy.

The point at which you can drop Spirit for other throughput stats varies very heavily for every Paladin, personally I'm pretty comfortable with my mana as-is and am contemplating a little regemming but would like to see Heroic Lei Shi before I commit to it.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12995
this just in.

items in the first raid of an expansion will not be perfectly itemized.
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100 Tauren Druid
9790
01/07/2013 11:22 AMPosted by Tailias
If every piece had ideal itemization, gear would be boring.


Yeah. Heaven's to Betsy, we must sometimes THINK about which piece of gear will be the best choice for the content, encounter, situation, personal playstyle we find ourselves in. Some tradeoffs are worth it. Many times I look at two peices of gear, and have to think out ... "OK, so I gain 76 intellect, but lose 238 spirit ... I can reforge all that crit into 357 Mastery though ... but the gem bonus is +60 spirit, and ... hummm ...."

If every piece of healing gear had spirit, it'd be too easy to just assign a rank number to every piece. Healing Helmet Rank 1. Your next upgrade is Healing Helmet Rank 2, and so on. Instead you get a few helmets that are equal in different situations for each rank, and you choose which one is best for you.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13225
01/17/2013 09:22 PMPosted by Tailias
give me whatever mana-hacks you have
it's called seal of insight and divine plea.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/18/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Tharna
give me whatever mana-hacks you have
it's called seal of insight and divine plea.


Eternal Flame resets your swing timer if you have multiple up, making it difficult if not impossible to get SoI procs via melee attacks if you're healing properly.

Any reasonably intelligent Holy Paladin is going to use Divine Plea. Suggesting that my high Spirit is a result of not using Divine Plea is pretty ridiculous. I may not use it literally on cooldown, because I don't like gimping my throughput during phases where I need to heal heavily, but that's one of the benefits of Spirit - I can delay DP for a little bit without running on vapors. It works out in favor of the raid to be healing at full capacity for a heavy burst healing phase rather than at 50% capacity with a little more spellpower.

I'm genuinely curious though - are you raiding 25's with tons of Resto Shamans? Are you 3-healing stuff on 10m that is supposed to be 2-healed? I'm genuinely perplexed here, because iirc your Spirit is around where mine was the first month of MSV raiding. You must use a lot of really powerful Holy Lights.
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90 Human Paladin
10740
Should have been here during Firelands and they left out a ton of spirit cloth. Priests were mad (as they should have been).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10065
The 25% threshold is for both. Most boss swing timers are at 2 seconds with some at 2.5, and with a little over 25% haste you'll be seeing 1.9X cast times. However this means you lose mastery, efficiency on your heals and you will go through mana faster if you don't pay attention to your heal spamming. The 25% mark is also when we get an additional tick of EF, making that spell more powerful. I personally use the 25% haste then dump into mastery build and like it but it does require Eternal Flame and you'll wind up doing a lot more surgical healing with holy light due to the shorter cast time then spamming Holy Radiance in some AoE situations.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
Or it might be something to do with eternal flame.

Yep.
http://www.totemspot.com/images/hastebreakpointcards/paladinholy.gif

That link doesn't really play nice.

Also I've never actually seen any maths on the Haste threshold for Eternal Flame. My gut says it's a fairly worthless thing to aim for (over more mastery), since it's a tiny amount of extra healing even if you never overwrite it (which is unavoidable sometimes).
Edited by Tarski on 1/31/2013 8:05 AM PST
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Devs have been saying "not every piece of gear needs to have spirit on it" since they took away healing power in october 2008 opening the way for dps and healers to be wanting the same gear, people STILL refuse to believe it :/

They're only JUST starting to get rid off all the weird greens with int and agility at the same time and crap like that...ONE pair of boots with useable if not perfectly ideal stats in a tier where there are other options available really doesn't seem worth crying about.
Edited by Feyranna on 1/31/2013 9:48 AM PST
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