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Just wanted to share some updated info we have with you guys: At this moment our intent is to change Thunder King’s LFR ilvl requirement to 480, we also want to lower the Honor gear in patch 5.2 from 483 to 476, compensating with some bonus PvP stats, so that the gear remains as powerful for PvP but not allow players to use it as a quick shortcut into LFR.
Quoted from EU forums as well as MMO-champ a few days ago.
I’m not too worried about the change. The reason?
3 things matter most in PvP when it comes to choosing gear.
1. Effective Health Pool (EHP)
All three CAN (if blizzard decides) be tuned up or down with PvP power and Resilience.
Now before anyone flames me, let me explain my reasoning.
If Blizzard makes the changes correctly, they can implement 476 Honor gear that is on par with or even better than the current 483 conquest gear from season 12.
- Everything you’re about to read is based on PvP Power and Resilience not competing with other stats as part of an items ilvl stat budget. I’m basing my assumption on this because I believe it was stated by blizzard that these pvp specific stats would NOT compete with the other stats when allocating stats per item’s ilvl. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
- I’m going to put a lot of these calculations in relative terms with rough numbers, as I’m only trying to show my method of thinking and how the gear can be tuned, not win a Fields Medal. Please don’t tell me how my stats below are not exact, I know this. It should not take away from the intent of thread, which is to show that with proper tweaks, the new honor gear can be competitive with the previous season’s conquest gear.
1. Let’s talk about Effective Health first.
Just looking at some of the top 3s teams, and inspecting character armories, I see stats close to this range for those wearing full conquest gear:
HP – 385k
Dmg Reduction (Resil) – 69%
PvP Power – 47%
Spell Power – 20k
Attack Power – 24k
The effective health (EHP) of someone with this HP and resil would be equal to:
HP/(1-Resil) or 385k/(1-0.69)=1242k EHP
Now, let’s say with the new 476 gear, your max HP attainable through gear is approximately 15% lower (Arbitrary Number!) than the 483 gear, but your max attainable resilience is about 7% higher than the 483 gear. This leaves you with
HP – 327.25k
Dmg Reduction (Resil) - .69 * 1.07 = .7383 (4.83% additional)
EHP = 327.25k/(1-.7383)= 1250k EHP
This means that it will take a total of 1,250,000 unmitigated (before reduction) will be required to kill you, approximately the same amount of damage as it would take someone to kill you if you had ilvl 483 gear.
Please note, I simplified my calculations to show damage reduction based on resilience only. Since incoming melee damage is also reduced by armor (as opposed to spell dmg which is not), there would be a need for some compensation for the loss of armor (and stats that provide armor). This could be accomplished by adding additional armor on the pieces as long as the +armor does not compete with the item budget of the other stats for that ilvl.
If adding additional armor does compete with the other stats (thus reducing primary or secondary stats even more to compensate for the +armor), resilience could be revamped to add a small amount of armor based on resil rating to compete with the extra armor at higher ilvls (This could get convoluted because the higher ilvl gear, while having less resil, would still receive some bonus armor as well.) I’m not sure what that magic number would be.
Keeping damage attained by the 476 gear roughly equal to the damage provided by the 483 gear will be a little trickier. I’m going to separate spell casters from melee since their abilities generally operate under different formulas (Casters based on spell power. Melee based on attack power AND weapon damage)
For spell casters, most damage is calculated by a formula of [Base Spell dmg + spellpower (SP) * dmg coefficient] , and weapon damage is not a factor. Other secondary stats such as haste/mastery/critical strike also add to your dps.
While the change in ilvl will decrease the secondary stats, the raw damage output could be tweaked by adding additional PvP power on the gear.
Example: Let’s say we have 2 spells. Each spell’s damage follows the formulas listed below.
Spell 1 - PvP Dmg = [.8*SP +1050] * (1+PvP Power)
Spell 2 – PvP Dmg = [1.25*SP + 1300] * (1+PvP Power)
Using the rough stats for the 483
Spell 1 - PvP Dmg = [.8*20,000+1050]*(1.47) = 25,063.5 PvP Dmg
Spell 2 – PvP Dmg = [1.25*20,000+1300]*(1.47) = 38,661 PvP Dmg
Now let’s say your spell power is also reduced by 15% (17k SP) by wearing the new 476 gear, but you are compensated with PvP power equal to roughly 71%.
Spell 1 – PvP Dmg = [.8*17,000+1050]*1.71 = 25,051.5 PvP Dmg
Spell 2 – PvP Dmg = [1.25*17,000+1300]*1.71 = 38,560.5 Pvp Dmg
As you can see, in terms of raw dmg output of each spell, the values are relatively unchanged when adding the extra PvP power to the ilvl 476 gear.
Now the one thing that is a problem with this method, is that secondary stats such as crit/haste/mastery are going to be lower on the ilvl 476 gear than on the 483 gear. Once again, there may be away to tune PvP power such that it provides a small amplification of secondary stats, but it will be a fine balancing act because by tying this to PvP power, you’re also increasing the secondary stats of the 483 gear.
For melee, the lowering of ilvl is compounded by the fact that most melee abilities are scaled from both weapon damage and attack power, meaning that losing both stats effectively double dips into reducing the damage output of a melee class.
I’m not going to put much math in this section as I think there’s a simple fix for this.
Add extra PvP Power to each piece of honor gear that is NOT a weapon and make the season 12 tier 1 (ilvl 478 or 470 version) weapon available for honor. I’d prefer the 478 version, as most every melee class upgraded their weapon first over any other pieces, and this would level the playing field for newcomers. This shouldn’t affect the LFR ilvl requirement as both versions of the weapons are below the 483 mark. This fix would also keep melee balanced by providing the same weapon damage, but a little higher pvp power on the honor gear to compensate for the loss of primary stats.
Well, I’m not going to sit here and pretend I know a thing about healing in PvP, as I’ve always played a dps class.
Healing is going to be the problem child in this whole gear balancing/compensation issue. The reason being that PvP healing power is reduced to 50% of the same PvP power used for damage. The only way to overcome this is to add even more PvP power for healers only, so that their (those with 476 gear) heals are on par with those wearing 483 gear from last season.
Let’s use Spell 2 from the example above and let it serve as a healing spell in this example
Spell 2 – PvP Healing = [1.25*20,000+1300]*(1+.47/2) = 32480.5 PvP Healing
(476 Gear with PvP power compensation, 71%)
Spell 2 – PvP Healing = [1.25*17,000+1300]*(1+.71/2) = 30555.25 PvP Healing
Not quite the same.
You’d actually need about 88% PvP power (reduced by 50% for heals) to make those numbers match with the 476 gear.
The problem, how do you put this extra PvP power to be used exclusively by healers, without making the same items available to hybrid specs such as shadow priests or boomkins. Putting the extra power on any item will be too enticing for a damage spec to pass up, even if said item has spirit on it.
Unfortunately I don’t have an answer to this one. Maybe letting PvP power from healing benefit by 100% again and increasing the battle fatigue debuff to compensate. I think that would solve the gear itemization problem between healers and hybrid specs that can use the healing gear for extra dmg.
As far as the lost of spirit/haste/crit/mastery, see my examples above.
Well, I’m sure you guys have a headache by now (I know I do!), so I’m going to give my fingers a rest.
Please let me know what you think.
Once again, this is my opinion of what could be done to help. If it gets done, well that’s something we can’t control, but I have faith in Blizzard that they will try to do the right and fair thing (even if it's not my suggestions).
Thanks for reading.
No he shouldn't, because you can just as easily upgrade the honor gear in question.
It's just semantics.
You have one problem: you're comparing it to 483 gear when you should be comparing it to the 491 gear people already have: upgraded malevolent.
Although we can't technically "upgrade" our own gear next season (due to the disappearance of the vendor), blizzard can tune the Resilience and PvP power knobs and use the suggestions posted above to make the 476 gear relatively equal to the 491 gear in terms of effective health and damage if they wanted.
The only draw to this is that it will feel incredibly weird for someone in lower ilvl gear doing more relative dmg (bigger numbers) than the person in higher ilvl gear (higher stamina for less mitigation and dmg vs. less stamina for more mitigation and dmg).
The effective damage against each other will remain unchanged, but just the sight of larger numbers coming from someone with way less HP than you is going to take a lot of getting used to.
Edited for clarity.
Edited by Deathtouched on 1/16/2013 7:15 PM PST
Or they could do the MASSIVELY EASIER thing and just make gear that has resilience on it not count towards your item level for LFR.
That way, they don't have to do this giant tinkering game of "lets try to make honor gear not viable for people that want to do LFR, but still make it not completely suck for people that want to start pvping".
The flat out easiest way to fix it right now is to make the honor gear not count towards your item level for LFR, then make all the honor items 491 iLevel. (The weapons could stay the same 470, or get upgraded too, whatever)
This would mean that:
1) LFR no longer cares about pvp gear, and pvp players are no longer forced to suffer because pve casuals want shortcuts to LFR.
2) Pvpers that had maxed out their gear still do not have to care about honor.
3) Pvpers that had NOT maxed out their gear, have a use honor.
4) Pvpers that had just started pvp can catch up to a relatively decent starting point.
5) Pvpers that want to gear up their alts, can get them to a decent point.
This means that pvpers at the start of a new season will have a more even playing field, without having to worry about who got to upgrade what pieces before, pvers no longer care about pvp gear either invading their raiding (no more pvp players showing up in LFR without pve gear) and pvpers don't have to worry about pve iLevels screwing with their gear.
How is that NOT easier?
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