PvE Holy Paladin Crit vs Mastery

90 Blood Elf Paladin
6935
Hi all!

Currently I use the normal Holy Paladin build (Spirit > Mastery > Haste = Crit) but I was looking at the AskMrRobot choices, and it says that a Crit heavy build will actually yield a sustained higher throughput. I've done some googling and even reading EJ and whatnot and I can't find anything to substantiate this.

Does anyone know if this is a valid build, and have any links to the theorycrafting behind it?
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
You can't find anything to substantiate it because there is in fact nothing to substantiate it. Such is the way of AskMrRobot. :-(
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10390
when you look at secondary stats:

haste is less mana efficient, but more HPS. you can cast spells faster, but more spells cast means less efficiency overall. less efficiency means you have to switch to more efficient spells or not cast for periods of time to regen mana, which is bad.

crit is RNG in terms of throughput, if you go for crit through gems and reforging and those crits do not happen, you do not gain any throughput increase. holy shock already has an increased crit chance baked into it, and gaining infusion of light is generally all you care about crit for. it's nice when crits happen, but relying on RNG is not a good way to gain HPS.

mastery is more healing per mana spent. all of your mastery benefiting spells gain healing from mastery rating. there is no RNG there. it's also better HPM because it leaves a bigger shield on targets which also leads to more healing done (preventing damage through shields is healing too).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6935
I have located where the theorycrafting for this reforging stat weights comes from. Revulva did a spreadsheet and some forum posts

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4526.msg29133#msg29133
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php?topic=4526.msg29370#msg29370

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqOEHcTBAvyidDdRZWpZb2pfY2ozX3ItZ1lzNzNId1E#gid=16

I've started to look at the spreadsheet and put my stats into the yellow boxes (where he intends user input to be added), but I'm not entirely done with it. Some how it does seem as far as the stat weights the spreadsheet spits out that Crit is very slightly better than mastery though I'm not sure if I want to test it during progression. Maybe during farm on Tuesday?

Anyone else have some opinion on it?
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90 Night Elf Druid
8965
lets assume one thing...is the marginal "potential" throughput needed for anything other than meter padding.

RnG is RnG...I much prefer predictable and steady over streaky big numbers.
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didnt notice I wasnt on the main...I 2nd the above post :))
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10390
i haven't looked at askmrrobot for anything this expansion, because it's proven in the past to be complete and utter garbage.

even if you reforge and gem for crit, you do not gain enough of it to remove RNG from the equation.

mastery is consistent throughput, where as crit relies on RNG. critical heals would provide large mastery shields as well (because of how much more they heal for), but more mastery will always provide those shields, where crit wouldn't.
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86 Tauren Warrior
9475
As Flay stated above RNG is RNG, it's not reliable. Mastery is the most efficient secondary stat for Holy Paladins with haste coming in right behind. Assuming your raid has the 5% haste buff you already reach one haste break point with eternal flame giving it an extra tick. If you feel that you need extra throughput I highly recommend aiming for the second EF break point at 3506 haste rating, but keep in mind you will lose 3-4% efficiency on your heals due to the loss of mastery and really only helps you if you finish a fight with significantly more mana then you need and use eternal flame more frequently than Light of Dawn. I have seen a holy paladin stack crit over mastery and leave haste out of the equation in a 10 man setting, he was struggling to hold a meager 50k hps and was forced to melee the boss for mana rather than heal. He peaked high when he blew cooldowns but once they ended his HPS dropped 20% or more within 30 seconds, most likely due to the RNG of being stacked for crit.

I highly recommend staying high mastery with some haste and reforge out of any crit. At this point in the xpac mastery far out weighs either crit or haste but it may change with 5.2 on the odd chance that mastery gets nerfed for holy pallies but lets hope that doesnt happen :P
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Spreadsheets that rely on the *average* throughput, comparing a 100% reliable stat versus a stat that is wholly reliant on the gods of luck, are completely irrelevant to healing. Delete them from bookmarks, forget they exist, and do your best to remove them from history except as an example how NOT to theorycraft a healer. Really.

You want reliability. I can understand going after some Crit as a supplement stat in the future - once we have more than enough Spirit/regen to keep the heals flowing, it may make sense to get some Crit to supplement our Mastery. I'd predict that Crit vs. Haste as a supplement secondary will be a big debate, if we get to that point (we probably will).

As a standalone stat, Crit falls flat on its face for a Holy Paladin, at least with the current design. We just don't have the mechanics to support it and don't gain enough benefit from it. Mastery is reliable, even if the ceiling isn't quite as high.
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90 Tauren Paladin
4965
I go crit over mastery any day of the year.

Why would i sacrifice (buffed) crit of 25-30% from 18% for a (buffed) mastery of 25% from 20%?

I also enjoy getting Light of Dawn to proc 6 times in a row, because that = massive HpS.

Mastery for me is a useless thing. Like, i already put a 20% shield on a guy normally, why in the hell would I stack over crit to put an extra 5%? Its not worth it. I would go from 19% crit unbuffed to 10-13%. No thanks!
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
Necroing a two month old thread is not usually considered good form.

Erm, crit has no bearing upon Divine Purpose procs. Divine Purpose is 25% proc chance at 3 HP, recursive, for a final average of 33% over the course of a fight. But it does seem likely that there's an extra formula that causes strings rather than a flat 25% across the board.

Your numbers for Mastery and Crit are also backwards. 1,000 Mastery gives you about 2.5% Mastery, whereas 1,000 crit gives you 1.6% crit. So if you're going from 19% crit unbuffed down to 10-13%, you're sacrificing a good 10-15% Mastery, much more than the 5% you're showing.

Crit is a fine stat. It provides solid throughput, and it provides a margin of haste via Infusion of Light procs. However, crit healing has higher overheal than anything else, and it's RNG, most especially compared with Mastery.
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90 Human Paladin
11245
Mastery is reliable, even if the ceiling isn't quite as high.


I haven't heard any talk about a ceiling on Mastery...is there a point of diminishing returns on Mastery?

Also, I like to think that big crits are overrated. If those crits are in the wrong place or slow or unneeded then whats the point? We are not just Tank healers any more...Holy Pali is an awesome AOE raid healer too. I am really feeling recently like I want more Haste to be more responsive to some of these raidwide DMG mechanics.
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90 Human Paladin
11935
I experimented with full crit vs everything in my stats and the result is very pleasing, "only if you got the right amount of spirit that gives you 10k mana regen." My Holy Shock is almost critting 100% of the time; with that "Infusion of Light" is always activated every 6sec, and the chances of very fast double heal a.k.a crit heal is very high. You can almost pocket heal everyone to 100% HP with 1 single skill. I am not sure if crit heals and overheal from it gives more absorption.

The problem with the build is it can get escalated easily if you use big manacost heal following 2 more of it. Leaving you ooming in a duration type of fight such as Megaera encounter.
Edited by Arcanemen on 4/11/2013 2:16 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16515
03/23/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Blackbriar
Mastery is reliable, even if the ceiling isn't quite as high.


I haven't heard any talk about a ceiling on Mastery...is there a point of diminishing returns on Mastery?

Also, I like to think that big crits are overrated. If those crits are in the wrong place or slow or unneeded then whats the point? We are not just Tank healers any more...Holy Pali is an awesome AOE raid healer too. I am really feeling recently like I want more Haste to be more responsive to some of these raidwide DMG mechanics.


30% of the paladins max health. The shield can only get so big. That said, it's unlikely that you will ever hit it on more than 2-3 targets without exclusive focus.

As for crit vs mastery....

If you invest point for point, crit starts out at 9%, mastery starts out at 12%. If the investment is the same (mastery 600 = 1.5%, vs Haste 600 = 1%, I don't know crit), it will take 1200-1800 crit to overcome the 3% starting disadvantage.

It just costs more to do the same thing. The trick however is that Crit synergizes with Mastery, but mastery does not synergize with Crit. When you crit you get bigger mastery shields, so investing heavily is win/win. If you minimize your crit investment, you don't get the same "crit bonus."

There's a point where the two lines will cross. I just don't know what that breakpoint is (for both stats), and whether the streakyness of the RNG will justify it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10910
Don't forget Glyph of Illumination. I don't know the math but at some value of crit that glyph probably overcomes the 10% less mana drawback.

That ask mr. robot "throughput" stat rating still puts mastery just one step after crit so it's not really fair to say crit vs mastery, when really that stat rating drops haste. I think the idea is that haste just doesn't provide as much synergy as crit and mastery do together and that high overheal with crit isn't so bad since it provides bigger shields. Also the problem with haste is that you are casting so many instants and also casting holy shock on cooldown which means you can only fit so many heals in between anyway. If you don't have enough haste to fit in an extra heal in between holy shocks than isn't that haste kind of wasted?
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
The only reason a healer would actually *want* Haste rating this expansion is for HoT breakpoints. If you're not getting a HoT breakpoint out of the deal, thus not only getting extra HPS but also making that Haste rating mana-efficient, then you shouldn't put that much value on it.

Holy Paladin Mastery is currently ridiculously overpowered. STACK IT!

The only real question is Crit vs. Haste, and it is and has always been very unimportant for us in MoP, but I do believe that with our Mastery levels increasing (especially when you get enough gear to replace blue gems with yellows!) that Crit will synergize a lot better. Remember that a 206% heal will apply a 206% shield.

If you want to take a look at the extreme side of things, look at what Eloderung has been up to:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/Eloderung/advanced

He has always done unusual or different things, and in fact he had basically the same reforging (ignore Spirit/Haste, reforge fully into Mastery>Crit) now as he did back in Firelands haha. But quite obviously he gets the concept of Illuminated Healing being stupid overpowered, and it's pretty interesting that he's leaning on the Illumination glyph rather than Spirit itself. No idea if that's wise at the moment, but it clearly works for him.

On a related note, I'm actually doing some research on Holy against my will it seems. (Between being in the Paladin forums... and quite a few healers in my guild being in the healing forums... haha) I may have to put in the work to update my sticky anyways.

Sometime... soooooooon....
Edited by Tailias on 4/11/2013 9:45 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16515

Holy Paladin Mastery is currently ridiculously overpowered. STACK IT!

The only real question is Crit vs. Haste, and it is and has always been very unimportant for us in MoP, but I do believe that with our Mastery levels increasing (especially when you get enough gear to replace blue gems with yellows!) that Crit will synergize a lot better. Remember that a 206% heal will apply a 206% shield.

If you want to take a look at the extreme side of things, look at what Eloderung has been up to:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/Eloderung/advanced

He has always done unusual or different things, and in fact he had basically the same reforging (ignore Spirit/Haste, reforge fully into Mastery>Crit) now as he did back in Firelands haha. But quite obviously he gets the concept of Illuminated Healing being stupid overpowered, and it's pretty interesting that he's leaning on the Illumination glyph rather than Spirit itself. No idea if that's wise at the moment, but it clearly works for him.


He's also giving up quite a few socket bonuses (480~ Int, and 200~ spirit) there with both spirit and Int. 7 gems * 320/2 = 1120 or not quite 3% mastery.

I'm not saying it isn't a valid path, but heck orange/green gems + socket bonuses vs straight mastery?

But based on his total spirit, his raid has to kill things FAST. If he goes OOM, he's got no way to get it back. There's just no buffer built in.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
Yup.

I remember him being one of the Holy Pallies who were like "I'd go below 1k Spirit if I could stay hitcapped" while they were working on Heroic Rag. The rest of us were struggling with the normal version or the first few heroics and were like uhh... where does the rest of your mana come from?

"MAGIC!"

"JUDGEMENTS!"

"GO GET A SHARD OF WOE!!!!"
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90 Human Priest
11345
They fixed the swing timer resetting due to EF bug, so you can get a ton of mana back from that.

RE: Eloderung: Basically he very rarely casts divine light. He uses shock + holy light during low damage periods and shock + radiance during high damage periods (where the raid can almost always stack).
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