The 5.2 blog is tricking most people

90 Undead Warlock
15560
People just don't think.

Character Progression is the primary foundation of a game like this. When your toon stops progressing, it's dead.

Gear is a form of Progression.

Imagine everyone got a full set of PvP gear upon hitting 90. They had that gear not just the whole season...but until the next expansion.

That's zero gear disparity.

PvP would be dead virtually over night.


The first days of the TR is the most active time of the year.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
0
01/23/2013 05:54 PMPosted by Daxxarri
It's not relevant to 5.2, but we understand that the Item Upgrade system on Conquest gear made a long gear grind even longer. We don’t mind that it takes some time to get awesome stuff, but we also recognize the problems that this presents too, and we’re definitely giving thought to solutions.


Maybe consider not having it be a flat 1500 points per item. It doesn't make a lot of sense that it costs 1500 to upgrade a ring which costs 1250, and also 1500 to upgrade a chest which costs 2250, especially when the chest upgrade gives way more stats for the same price.

Right now it costs 22500 to upgrade if you're using a 2h, 24000 if you're dual wielding (another oddity), and 27000 for a full set of unupgraded gear. I think it would make more sense to have it cost a percentage of the base item's cost. Currently it's 83.333% repeating for 2h and 88.888% repeating for dual wield. To make it slightly less grindy, maybe somewhere in the 50-75% range.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435
It's still bad for alts and off-specs.

I'm not sure why you think an infinite treadmill is good for pvp. Trade goods are a good point dump. Why can't you think along those lines?
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
10625
Sort of off topic.

But Dks need to have a disarm reduction added to pvp gloves, or something similar.

In previous seasons it hasn't been an issue as you could just simply buy another weapon and swap between them. However with the current system taking a few years to fully gear, there isn't the spare points to buy a second weapon.

I don't think the fact that some classes need more than just 1 set of gear was taken into account when calculating item prices / amount of conquest you can earn. Not being able to access that gear is actually very detrimental.

If you're feeling super generous make pvp weapons cheap enough to be able to purchase 3 in a season, so we can rock spellshattering aswell.

xoxo
Edited by Trip on 1/24/2013 2:44 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
8995
idc anymore i have put this game on the shelf and im not renewing my sub. You guys should try LOL. It's really fun i'm level 10 atm, but i can see why there is over 25million people playing this game.
Reply Quote
26 Worgen Rogue
10635
Ok, so I finallly threw my hat in the ring. I crafted/bought 8/8 contenders for my Holy Pally. No jewelry, trinkets, or cape yet. Questing gear & low level PVP trinket instead for those slots. All enchantable items enchanted & gemmed. 463 PVE Intel Weapon & Shield.

This seems to be a good starting place, though if I would have forked out another 2-4k I could have been a tiny bit stonger..but anyway.

Going against the typical players in randoms BG's and healing the same players, the other randoms in group with me - upwards of 480 AiL vs my 450 are healing for almost exactly double what I'm healing. I'm not talking about total healing done, etc...I mean going down the list and checking out the specific spells. My Divine Light crits for about 50k, his 108k. All the other spells going down the list look exactly the same.

In a nutshell buying the best PVP gear I can get my hands on before entering BGs makes me feel like a little kid and almost completely ineffectual. I was spamming Flash of Light and those 20k bombs weren't really doing anything...though the rare 40k crit did make their health bar move slightly.

Sorry I know the tone is mostly pissy...and granted, I should have waited to cool off a little before posting. That said, the numbers I list are all accurate, and trying to jump into even random non-rated BGs midseason is well more then daunting. I'll need to reread the blog, but I don't know that I got the impression that doing what I did mid-5.2 will be any different, only you can farm your complete irrelevance for more points each week in hops of getting gear more quickly.

*Side note. I do feel like I completely wasted my time & gold building the contender's set. The impact of me joining with non-enchanted Dread Waste quest gear could not have been much different.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
01/24/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Positron
There's been some calls for normalizing gear with the introduction of challenge mode. What do you think is the incentive for challenge mode? Leaderboards. Once you get gold that's it. Why does Blizzard think challenge mode without progression is perfectly ok? What's the difference between challenge mode and arena really? I just don't get these people sometimes.

I wonder, are arenas to challenge modes as RBG's are to raiding? It'd be interesting if arena had normalized gear and RBG's didn't. That way PvP'ers would have a choice as to whether or not the gear treadmill has a big effect on them, and the increased RBG cap wouldn't have a negative effect on arena.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
01/24/2013 02:52 AMPosted by Legëndz
idc anymore i have put this game on the shelf and im not renewing my sub. You guys should try LOL. It's really fun i'm level 10 atm, but i can see why there is over 25million people playing this game.

LoL is a much more streamlined game. All the focus is on PvP and players expect constant balance patches. There are no complaints about good buffs and nerfs changing the game too much, thank God. I find few things as silly as players who are more concerned with maintaining the status quo than balancing the godd*mn game.
Reply Quote
80 Human Priest
3225
01/24/2013 01:53 AMPosted by Lulyoumad
I get tired of posts like this. QQ is all I can read. If you hit 1500 plus you have an increase in conquest point cap...... So just hit 1500 and raise your cap from like 1800 to 2200. please stop crying about things like this...


Yeah I agree with you 100%.

It's getting so bad I am not sure why Blizzard even talks to the forum community. Nothing they do will make these people happy. It's a constant whine/!@#$%/moan fesitival.

PvP is suppose to be about competition. If the season is going to last 5 months what does it matter how much something cost?

You should be pvping to increase your rating and get titles. You should be playing a few times a week anyway so you are going to hopefully move up in rating and keep earning points every week.

I mean I just don't understand this "omg to much of a grind" mentality. If you don't want to grind then never play a MMO.

You fools know nothing of grind. It took me 18 months of pure grinding to get my mage epic in Everquest nearly 10yrs ago. I am still in therapy because of it! =p

You teenage crybabies. You disgrace all the gamers that came before you..
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Mage
13455
Item level is only part of the picture. We were more generous with PvP Power and Resilience on the Honor gear.

I thought that the amount of all stats on items was a function of ilvl, and weren't customized from item to item, is this not the case?

For normal stats, yes, their total budget is determined by ilvl. Pvp power and resilience aren't part of the normal item budget anymore (which is why pvp gear has two rating stats now, unlike before), and can be raised or lowered as they see fit.


Thanks for the clarification.

Except when it comes to PvP, most people enjoy the aspect of fighting real players in a situation that is dynamic and adaptable. Where playing skillfully and intelligently gets you a win over an opponent. What we have now is such a massive gap in power that no matter how well you play, you can't overcome how much harder your enemy can hit you for.

I'm pretty sure the PvP community wouldn't die over night, I'm pretty sure people would be playing more either because they enjoy the equal footing and because their alts could finally play without being completely out matched gear wise.

You want carrots to chase after? Rewards that do not give you an edge are the answer.


I think this is exactly right. Gear is one form of progression but gear gaps of the levels we're seeing now (and should expect to see in 5.2) don't make sense in PvP as it minimizes the skill aspect of this type of play.

But there are other incentives besides gear in the game already - achievements (bring back the hk titles!), gold, cosmetic gear, vanity items, and most importantly for players that enjoy pvp, the enjoyment that comes from a good fight.

If gear was normalized (still allowing for customization in enchants, reforging, and gemming) or if the gap were drastically narrowed (say like no more than a 10 ilvl difference between the worst and best pvp tiers), would we lose some pvpers? Yes - players that play mainly to roll over less-geared others and bots would all vanish quickly. But I think we'd see more pvp activity from players playing alts and others who are behind the gearing curve.

In addition, I think the pvp community as a whole would be happier. Keep incentives, keep progression, but get it away from gear because it's gotten out of hand.

Positron above me said it great:

01/24/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Positron
We went out and did world pvp before bgs and then did bgs before they had rewards. People pvped for the fun of it for a long time and still do. By that logic no one would have played vanilla.
Edited by Liyly on 1/24/2013 7:49 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Monk
10055
01/24/2013 06:11 AMPosted by Primiez
I mean I just don't understand this "omg to much of a grind" mentality. If you don't want to grind then never play a MMO.


Before this announcement it was an additional 15 weeks of grind from what we currently have. Now it's down to 10. Why the increase?

Anyway, some people like to PvP for random BG's. They don't care about arena or rated crap, but they want to be able to compete with people who do.
Edited by Qwaai on 1/24/2013 7:57 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warlock
7625
I've been saying about this since the blog was released but people just didn't listen. Blizzard took a bunch of crap that most PvP'ers would hate, put a little spin on it and fed it to them, and everybody is eating it up.

The new Elite gear having a higher item level is basically going back to TBC and Wrath times where all the good gear had ratings. The only difference now is that it will be gated by ratings instead of restricted by them. It's pretty much the same result. Basically they made it so the best gear is available to higher rated players months ahead of average players. They can then use this better gear to carry their friends and even carry others for gold, the only difference is they can only do it for a limited amount of time, but by then the damage is done. That is the only reason higher rated players could possibly need better gear.

There is no reason whatsoever that the Elite gear needs to have a higher item level. Blizzard even acknowledged that PvP'ers don't want better tiers of gear, they are happy with cosmetic upgrades and things that simply show off their achievements. Yet here we are. Instead of getting rid of the T2 weapon, they added a full set of T2 gear.

They should just scrap that part of the changes and make the Elite gear only cosmetically different, including the weapon. Then put it back to rating restricted. I would have said lower the rating to 2000, but with the new rating increases that may not even be necessary.

I'll say it again, the only reason high rated players need higher item level gear is so they can use it to carry other people who aren't deserving of it.
Edited by Jihadjim on 1/24/2013 8:03 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Hunter
3935
So basically the new elite gear will take the place of gear upgrades. But it won't have a 2200 requirement. Still a step forward IMO.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Warlock
7565
01/24/2013 06:11 AMPosted by Primiez
I mean I just don't understand this "omg to much of a grind" mentality. If you don't want to grind then never play a MMO.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6480
While i am not completely happy with the 5.2 changes, i feel they are a step in the right direction. The removal of rating requirement for t2 is pretty major imo. Since i never stick with one team and just make new ones with whoever is on in my guild its nice to know ill be able to get decked out at some point.

The real issue that needs to be addressed in pvp is balancing the various specs. I like my particular class, that is why i rolled it, i shouldnt have to reroll fotm and get elite gear to be truly competitive, or at least make pvp enjoyable.

Regardless of gear, this pally is always going to be worse than my spriest, for example. Purely b/c the priest has a vastly superior, and better structured, toolkit. Which is sad b/c i have played pally much longer and know the class much better than a spriest. But even with my lack of skill with priests that toon still does better in pvp just b/c the class is built better. Its like trying to beat a muscle car in a drag race with Prius. Regardless of how good the Prius driver is he is going to lose vs the muscle car simply b/c a Prius isnt built for racing.

So in summary: gear problem is solved (some what). Now tackle the biggest issue in pvp true class balance.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
01/23/2013 05:54 PMPosted by Daxxarri
  • It's not relevant to 5.2, but we understand that the Item Upgrade system on Conquest gear made a long gear grind even longer. We don’t mind that it takes some time to get awesome stuff, but we also recognize the problems that this presents too, and we’re definitely giving thought to solutions.


  • Just to play devil's advocate here but...

    Doesn't having Conquest/Honor sinks that are active and in effect for all or most of an entire season basically keep people in and actively acquiring more points for a longer portion *of* the season, meaning that said individuals actually have to be out doing PvP instead of hitting their MMRs early on and then doing as little as possible required to maintain said MMRs from there on?

    Just saying, if the idea is to get PvPers to keep doing PvP over an extended portion of the season, why would you want to remove/reduce the very same sinks that kept them active and playing in the first place?

    To my way of thinking, it would be better to make the gear itself the part that's fairly inexpensive and quick, and progressively and gradually upgrading all of them the part that's done over the length of the season.
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Mage
    3775
    01/24/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Feandel
  • It's not relevant to 5.2, but we understand that the Item Upgrade system on Conquest gear made a long gear grind even longer. We don’t mind that it takes some time to get awesome stuff, but we also recognize the problems that this presents too, and we’re definitely giving thought to solutions.


  • Just to play devil's advocate here but...

    Doesn't having Conquest/Honor sinks that are active and in effect for all or most of an entire season basically keep people in and actively acquiring more points for a longer portion *of* the season, meaning that said individuals actually have to be out doing PvP instead of hitting their MMRs early on and then doing as little as possible required to maintain said MMRs from there on?

    Just saying, if the idea is to get PvPers to keep doing PvP over an extended portion of the season, why would you want to remove/reduce the very same sinks that kept them active and playing in the first place?

    To my way of thinking, it would be better to make the gear itself the part that's fairly inexpensive and quick, and progressively and gradually upgrading all of them the part that's done over the length of the season.


    It's already hard enough to get full tyrannical elite by the end of the season....
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]