The 5.2 blog is tricking most people

90 Undead Warlock
17730
What was wrong with the cosmetic "elite" option?

Lots of 2200+ people when we had cosmetic upgrades for gear just didn't take advantage of it unless they felt like the regemming was worth it.

Can't the "elite" gear simply be a set like the challenge mode gear? Awesome graphics for xmog?

Does Blizzard really think that the PVP players who get to 2200+ are just doing it for the eventual gear upgrades?

01/24/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Feandel
Doesn't having Conquest/Honor sinks that are active and in effect for all or most of an entire season basically keep people in and actively acquiring more points for a longer portion *of* the season, meaning that said individuals actually have to be out doing PvP instead of hitting their MMRs early on and then doing as little as possible required to maintain said MMRs from there on?


I don't think so.

For people below 2200 who are just there to "get points" for their next piece, perhaps. But I think once you reach the point at which you're eligible for the better titles and get above 2200 (or whatever the arbitrary number might be for the "better" gear), people are just playing to play and compete. They're not playing so that "oh cool next week I get another piece of gear with +4 ilvl on it!"

edited to add: clearly I am not gladiator material, so this is just my perception.
Edited by Selenora on 1/24/2013 10:14 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
7215
01/23/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Santee
1800/wk for 30 wks? i'm sorry if you cannot break 1500 for an entire season it is seriously your own l2p issue.


this is a very insulting comment to all the pvpers that tried to get anywhere this season. if the CP was 2200 for everyone then this comment would have some bearing but the truth is we didnt get to 1500 arena rating because of blizzard.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435

PvP is suppose to be about competition. If the season is going to last 5 months what does it matter how much something cost?

You should be pvping to increase your rating and get titles. You should be playing a few times a week anyway so you are going to hopefully move up in rating and keep earning points every week.

I mean I just don't understand this "omg to much of a grind" mentality. If you don't want to grind then never play a MMO.

You fools know nothing of grind. It took me 18 months of pure grinding to get my mage epic in Everquest nearly 10yrs ago. I am still in therapy because of it! =p



Because it would take like 5 months to gear and then upgrades after that? Still not a good situation for alts and off-specs.

Does EQ even have bgs or arenas or any structured pvp at all? What does competition have to do with grinding? In competition people want fair and balanced. Not global someone because you have a legendary.

If you are in therapy because of grinding then that doesn't sound like a good argument.
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90 Human Paladin
6815
Still a disaster. Elite gear shouldn't be at all stronger than regular Conquest gear. The gap is gonna be massive! You think item upgrade was bad? Lol... Just wait til you see 5.2.... And then wait until you see 5.3 when item upgrade is back!
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Community Manager
01/23/2013 07:10 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
There should never be a gear disparity in pvp.


I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.

Philosophically, I sympathize with that perspective, and we do recognize the value in it. We actually try to offer an environment that provides most of that experience via the Arena Pass realm. Hopefully, it remains popular and we can ensure that option remains available long into the future too.

World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.
Edited by Daxxarri on 1/24/2013 11:22 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
14085
In line with allowing hybrids to try out different specs can you please make it so elite tyrannical gear becomes purchasable with honor once you get 17,250 on top of the 27,000 conquest?
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There should never be a gear disparity in pvp.


I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.

Philosophically, I sympathize with that perspective, and we do recognize the value in it. We actually try to offer an environment that provides most of that experience via the Arena Pass realm. Hopefully, it remains popular and we can ensure that option remains available long into the future too.

World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.

That's what PvE and earning cosmetics are supposed to be for.

That's taking the ideals of PvE progression and then applying them to PvP, that's like trying to force a square block into a hole meant for a circle.
Edited by Chikatree on 1/24/2013 11:29 AM PST
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
There should never be a gear disparity in pvp.


I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.

Philosophically, I sympathize with that perspective, and we do recognize the value in it. We actually try to offer an environment that provides most of that experience via the Arena Pass realm. Hopefully, it remains popular and we can ensure that option remains available long into the future too.

World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.


Of course people want to earn items.. heck I only just got full dread but it feels good knowing that I earned not... not like the crafted PvP gear that just felt... well dirty
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
That's taking the ideals of PvE progression and then applying them to PvP, that's be like trying to force a square block into a hole meant for circle.


PvP has to be a progression based system, otherwise PvP gear would either be the BiS for all classes in PvE or it would be better to run with Pure PvE gear in arenas and bgs (btw, that was fun to do in cata on this pally lol). That's the whole point of the 4 tiers of gear next patch. In a game where PvE and PvP exist and changes to one influence the other, things like progression in both MUST exist.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435
Daxx,

Please explain to me the logic of challenge mode.

Gear is normalized. Since it only scales down, you do still have to do some gearing, but it's minimal.

There are no drops other then some vp so gear progression is minimal, but that doesn't matter anyways because the gear is normalized.

The only incentive after gold is competing for best time on the leaderboard as the gold reward is one time only and is purely cosmetic.

How does challenge mode make sense in this rpg paradigm that you guys are bringing up? By all means you should be able to progress and get better gear through challenge mode (more then vp), but you can't.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435


PvP has to be a progression based system, otherwise PvP gear would either be the BiS for all classes in PvE or it would be better to run with Pure PvE gear in arenas and bgs (btw, that was fun to do in cata on this pally lol). That's the whole point of the 4 tiers of gear next patch. In a game where PvE and PvP exist and changes to one influence the other, things like progression in both MUST exist.


But the whole point of pvp power was to essentially disable pve gear in pvp.

I understand the 4 tiers, but it's still not a fun prospect to grind that AND to upgrade them later.

What's so fun about replacing your epics with greens in the next xpac? I'm actually tired of xpacs at this point if it just means more grinding.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7445
Alot of the devs at blizzard should be politicians, tell us what we want to hear then do the exact opposite in practice. Make pvp more competitive and rewarding for casual players under 2400? Please youve done nothing but increase the gap between, your so called fixes will do nothing but widen gear gaps.

So when a new player finally has a full tryanical non elite set by week 25 of the season theyll be farmed in the 1500 bracket by elite geared players of equal skill who've maintained an 1800 rating all season because they had a gear advantage at the start, as opposed to 2k players being farmed by those with t2 weapons. Nothing changes.

"Liberal addition of pvp resi and power" on honor malev gear wont dictate an even playing field for those against people in 491 malev with equal resi and pvp power but roughly 10% higher stats on the gear per item piece.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 11:31 AMPosted by Positron
How does challenge mode make sense in this rpg paradigm that you guys are bringing up? By all means you should be able to progress and get better gear through challenge mode (more then vp), but you can't.


Challenge modes are essentially, competitive PvE. They're designed so that Everyone in full 463 gear can do them so the requirements for them are much less than that of people wanting to raid. Who knows, maybe blizzard will hold a tournament to see who can do all of the challenge modes the fastest. It's also designed for players that either want to get into something more difficult than heroics (because casuals do get bored too), or as something to do in the off time for raids. While they cannot be pugged, when you have 5 guildies on, it is possible to do. And it takes a sort of RBG view at PvE in the sense that you have to worry about comps, what comps will be best with dealing with damage, CC etc.
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01/24/2013 11:30 AMPosted by Egopally
That's taking the ideals of PvE progression and then applying them to PvP, that's be like trying to force a square block into a hole meant for circle.


PvP has to be a progression based system, otherwise PvP gear would either be the BiS for all classes in PvE or it would be better to run with Pure PvE gear in arenas and bgs (btw, that was fun to do in cata on this pally lol). That's the whole point of the 4 tiers of gear next patch. In a game where PvE and PvP exist and changes to one influence the other, things like progression in both MUST exist.

thats what PvP power and PvP resilience is for. If that's still not good enough then it's simple. PvE items are not allowed in bg's and arenas. you enter with pvp gear, and you can't swap it with pve gear while in the match. (kind of similar to gw2 for spvp).

if people still want 'progression' while pvping (even though the fun of pvp and ranking bragging rights should be enough imo), here's a list of things they could do:

Use the conquest points and achievements for

•transmog rewards
•mounts
•vanity/battle pets
•tabards
•heirlooms
•brawlers guild passes
•hardened shell
•vanity items (things that turn you into other races, into statues, barrels of liquor[Drinking gives you the flavor buff "increases pvp skill+1!!"])
•gems with resil/pvp power (so the poor pvprs that have no gold could actually get gems)
•pvp enchants (because we have no way to make gold in pvp)
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709862335#new-post
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90 Night Elf Druid
8070
Daxx:

Hand-i-cap

From dictionary.com-
noun
1. a race or other contest in which certain disadvantages or advantages of weight, distance, time, etc., are placed upon competitors to equalize their chances of winning.

2. the disadvantage or advantage itself.

Merriam-Webster.com-
1a : a race or contest in which an artificial advantage is given or disadvantage imposed on a contestant to equalize chances of winning

1b : an advantage given or disadvantage imposed usually in the form of points, strokes, weight to be carried, or distance from the target or goal

--

I think you guys got the whole idea of handicap backwards at some point...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.

What about RBG's? The devs are forcing these on people who want to do arena. Hell, my spec isn't realistically allowed to participate in RBG's. The conquest caps between the two forms of endgame PvP need to be closer to one another. It's bullsh!t that someone who got carried in RBG's, win-traded in RBG's, or even simply just did well in RBG's can come into arena in the middle of a season and sh!t all over me. Who needs skill when the gear disparity is so large that these players can pop all their CD's and zerg me from start to finish?
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90 Orc Shaman
14220
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful.


in a pve sense I agree, but when its competition based and rewarded so, the typical "grind" of rbg idea NEEDS to be thrown out the window.

something that beyond my understanding the development team just now thinks to add in more vanity rewards to pvp (which sadly most us expect just one additional mount or something and you will call it a day). "powerful" is not limited to bigger stats, the popularity of d3 colletor's edition wings and the shadowmourne tabard should give the development truck tons of ideas to be more "powerful" aka cool looking with out bigger stats.
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Do we need to do the legendary quest line do obtain the legendary PvP gem?
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 11:37 AMPosted by Positron
AND to upgrade them later.


This has been taken out. I do believe Daxx said that they were trying to come up with Ideas on how to make the upgrade system work for PvP and not affect PvE.

Also, if we just had flat PvP gear, then PvE gear would eventually outstrip it, no matter how much pvp power or pvp resilience you have, it would end up being overall, better than the PvP gear. You can't just go up 1 gear level at a time because it would probably hurt the gear gap more than what is happening right now because it would have to be such a huge gap because of the PvE gear, that anyone starting midseason would just get roflstomped all day long (in the argument that the player stopped PvPing after the end of the previous season and is only starting then)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435
01/24/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Egopally
How does challenge mode make sense in this rpg paradigm that you guys are bringing up? By all means you should be able to progress and get better gear through challenge mode (more then vp), but you can't.


Challenge modes are essentially, competitive PvE. They're designed so that Everyone in full 463 gear can do them so the requirements for them are much less than that of people wanting to raid. Who knows, maybe blizzard will hold a tournament to see who can do all of the challenge modes the fastest. It's also designed for players that either want to get into something more difficult than heroics (because casuals do get bored too), or as something to do in the off time for raids. While they cannot be pugged, when you have 5 guildies on, it is possible to do. And it takes a sort of RBG view at PvE in the sense that you have to worry about comps, what comps will be best with dealing with damage, CC etc.


PVP is also competitive so doesn't that mean gear should be normalized as well?
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