The 5.2 blog is tricking most people

90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Chikatree
PvE items are not allowed in bg's and arenas


The computer cannot tell what is PvE and what is PvP. Also, How would people who are just starting into PvP get gear if they couldn't wear PvE gear? If they were hardcore raiders, are you saying they'd be banned from PvP simply because they don't have PvP gear? You can't buy PvP everything (trinkets, rings, weapon, neck and back).
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80 Human Priest
3225
This is a RPG. They are never going to split this game down the middle. So grinding for pvp gear is just part of a game like this. PvPers have the advantage in that it's only a matter of time before they get the gear they want. In PvE raiding you might NEVER get the piece you want. I know we killed KT 20x and he never dropped Betrayer Of Humanity. I have probably killed KT 40+ times since Wrath Released and I still have never seen that Axe drop.

Ultimately some people are just NEVER going to be satisfied or happy with anything Blizzard does. They have pretty much handed up very powerful gear on a platter with little to no barriers other then time devoted yet it still isn't enough for the cry babies.

I honestly don't even know why they bother.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 11:49 AMPosted by Positron
PVP is also competitive so doesn't that mean gear should be normalized as well?


PvP changes depending on the player, PvE stays the same (challenge modes especially considering that blizzard specifically said, any random mechanics were taken out for it). PvE get's easier with practice, PvP never really gets easier unless you get the gear for it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
01/24/2013 11:49 AMPosted by Egopally
AND to upgrade them later.


This has been taken out. I do believe Daxx said that they were trying to come up with Ideas on how to make the upgrade system work for PvP and not affect PvE.

Also, if we just had flat PvP gear, then PvE gear would eventually outstrip it, no matter how much pvp power or pvp resilience you have, it would end up being overall, better than the PvP gear. You can't just go up 1 gear level at a time because it would probably hurt the gear gap more than what is happening right now because it would have to be such a huge gap because of the PvE gear, that anyone starting midseason would just get roflstomped all day long (in the argument that the player stopped PvPing after the end of the previous season and is only starting then)


They said they are bringing it back in 5.3. We'll see what if anything changes.

At most we are talking a few pieces. I doubt losing pvp power entirely is desirable or resilience for that matter. No way you can do competitive pvp without any resilience. We have experience from before to relate.
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100 Troll Druid
10000
01/24/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Egopally
PvE items are not allowed in bg's and arenas


The computer cannot tell what is PvE and what is PvP. Also, How would people who are just starting into PvP get gear if they couldn't wear PvE gear? If they were hardcore raiders, are you saying they'd be banned from PvP simply because they don't have PvP gear? You can't buy PvP everything (trinkets, rings, weapon, neck and back).


it would be similar to challenge mode dungeons, your current gear would be replaced. or they can make it so you just grab the gear from a vendor already there like a private server and must have it on in order to join a bg or arena.

If it's the second option it'd be pretty simple to have the game do a gear check to make sure that the items you are wearing are on the 'okay' list, and if one isn't on that list then it won't let you.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Positron
They said they are bringing it back in 5.3. We'll see what if anything changes.


01/24/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Positron
I do believe Daxx said that they were trying to come up with Ideas on how to make the upgrade system work for PvP and not affect PvE.


I do believe that they Know that a change is needed and plan on working on it. So we should see a change in how it works for 5.3. I do like the Idea of only being able to upgrade honor gear though. Being able to upgrade conquest is what caused the gear gap in the first place imo.
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66 Worgen Death Knight
5575
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
There should never be a gear disparity in pvp.


I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.

Philosophically, I sympathize with that perspective, and we do recognize the value in it. We actually try to offer an environment that provides most of that experience via the Arena Pass realm. Hopefully, it remains popular and we can ensure that option remains available long into the future too.

World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.


In a legitimate competitive environment, the tools should never be the prizes. Otherwise that's just like asking new football players to start out with leather football helmets and cloth jerseys. You have to "earn" your way to wearing a plastic helmets and modern shoulder pads.

But, whatever. I guess that's why WoW PVP never appealed to me that much anyway. You have to be someone else's !@#$% for weeks before you earn the right to have fun.
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Community Manager
Daxx,

Please explain to me the logic of challenge mode.


I would argue that comparing Arenas and RBGs to Challenge Modes is possible, but I'm not sure that it's wise.

Challenge Modes are niche gameplay, whereas Arenas, RBGs, non-challenge mode dungeons, and raids represent core gameplay. For example, I don't think we ever expect large numbers of players to do Challenge Modes only, the way some players are heavily dedicated to PvP to the exclusion of near all else.
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88 Orc Warrior
9400
This is a RPG. They are never going to split this game down the middle. So grinding for pvp gear is just part of a game like this. PvPers have the advantage in that it's only a matter of time before they get the gear they want. In PvE raiding you might NEVER get the piece you want. I know we killed KT 20x and he never dropped Betrayer Of Humanity. I have probably killed KT 40+ times since Wrath Released and I still have never seen that Axe drop.

Ultimately some people are just NEVER going to be satisfied or happy with anything Blizzard does. They have pretty much handed up very powerful gear on a platter with little to no barriers other then time devoted yet it still isn't enough for the cry babies.

I honestly don't even know why they bother.


wow I used to dual wield Betrayers in Naxx, I feel your pain though. Ran heroic Mech 40 something times to finally get my Sun Eater in BC. Farmed MC for about a year straight every lockout to get my second binding, etc , etc. RNG in this game can majorly suck.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
01/24/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Egopally
PVP is also competitive so doesn't that mean gear should be normalized as well?


PvP changes depending on the player, PvE stays the same (challenge modes especially considering that blizzard specifically said, any random mechanics were taken out for it). PvE get's easier with practice, PvP never really gets easier unless you get the gear for it.


PVE does get easier with gear. That's why they normalized it in challenge mode to take that factor out.

Gear is normalized on tournaments.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 11:59 AMPosted by Chikatree
If it's the second option it'd be pretty simple to have the game do a gear check to make sure that the items you are wearing are on the 'okay' list, and if one isn't on that list then it won't let you.


Have you thought about how this affects the low level brackets? This would be forced into low level brackets and that just wouldn't work because if just 1 thing was not okay, then there would be issues. (I'm assuming we're talking random battlegrounds considering that RBGs you're going to get gear checked anyway). Also, they would literally have to go through every piece of gear by hand and sort it into "Okay" and "Not okay" before this even has a chance to work.
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88 Orc Warrior
9400
Daxx,

Please explain to me the logic of challenge mode.


I would argue that comparing Arenas and RBGs to Challenge Modes is possible, but I'm not sure that it's wise.

Challenge Modes are niche gameplay, whereas Arenas, RBGs, non-challenge mode dungeons, and raids represent core gameplay. For example, I don't think we ever expect large numbers of players to do Challenge Modes only, the way some players are heavily dedicated to PvP to the exclusion of near all else.


I get what your saying, theyre like a nice, fatty dessert on the menu. Most people come for the well rounded entrees, some also have the dessert afterwards and a very small portion just come for dessert, even though it might not be in their best interest of their personal health.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
PVE does get easier with gear. That's why they normalized it in challenge mode to take that factor out. Gear is normalized on tournaments.


On tournaments, to make sure whatever team wins the number 1 prize doesn't get it through some unfair gear advantage.

PvE doesn't change. PvP does. PvP has way more variables to consider than PvE so normalizing it would just make it harder for those who have earned more than what they've gotten. I mean, if you've earned full malev, you should have that advantage over newer players. You should be able to beat on the people gearing up. You've taken your hell week and now you're going to dish it back. If it was stagnant, why would I want to PvP when everyone is equal to me and I've done more to become equal?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
Daxx,

Please explain to me the logic of challenge mode.


I would argue that comparing Arenas and RBGs to Challenge Modes is possible, but I'm not sure that it's wise.

Challenge Modes are niche gameplay, whereas Arenas, RBGs, non-challenge mode dungeons, and raids represent core gameplay. For example, I don't think we ever expect large numbers of players to do Challenge Modes only, the way some players are heavily dedicated to PvP to the exclusion of near all else.


But don't you realize there is no incentive to do challenge mode because you can't get gear?

You guys recognized that only a small portion did raids right? What do you think the other people were doing? Dungeon perhaps? Challenge modes are still dungeons. It's not some completely different thing here.

The point is that challenge mode offers no progression so I fail to see how this fits in the rpg logic you guys are using. You say the leaderboard is enough incentive to keep doing them. I would say that logic should be the same for pvp.

You can't progress with gear in challenge mode so what's the point? If you're going to say "fun" then can't you say the same about pvp?
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Community Manager
01/24/2013 12:13 PMPosted by Deathrattles
Do you think the highest ranked chess players should get extra pieces?


Chess is a board game that's remained static since ancient times. There are very strict rules, and both sides have exactly identical capabilities. There are a ton of games out there like this, from board games, to first person shooters, to RTSes. In all of these games, the point and essence of the game boils down to pure competition, so that makes sense. Even in some of these "pure competition" games, RPG elements have crept in, like leveling or earning gear that's cooler (Not gonna name names, but these elements are present in everything from the very latest competitive shooters all the way back to the team v. team games that started it all). Why? I'd say it's because those RPG elements are fun, and they're a compelling reason to compete.

World of Warcraft is an RPG, where pure competition by itself is not at the central essence of the game. I would argue that getting more powerful and beating faces in as a result of your increased bad-assery is part of our core experience, along with lots of other RPG core elements. That doesn't mean that the environment isn't or can't be highly competitive. It certainly can be and often is. Nonetheless, as I mentioned in my prior post, if you want the closest approximation to "pure competition" in PvP that World of Warcraft offers, then you might want to keep your eyes open for the next Arena Pass realm to start.

01/24/2013 12:18 PMPosted by Positron
The point is that challenge mode offers no progression so I fail to see how this fits in the rpg logic you guys are using.


For the record, it's my logic and personal opinion, not Blizzard's logic as a whole. And I already drew the distinction. Challenge Modes don't need to offer progression because they're not core gameplay, they're a niche pursuit. I would argue that PvP is core gameplay.
Edited by Daxxarri on 1/24/2013 12:30 PM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 12:18 PMPosted by Positron
The point is that challenge mode offers no progression so I fail to see how this fits in the rpg logic you guys are using.


01/24/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Challenge Modes are niche gameplay, whereas Arenas, RBGs, non-challenge mode dungeons, and raids represent core gameplay.


Core gameplay = the RPG logic. PvP will always be part of MMORPGs and thus, it needs to abide by the progression system or it will never be fair.
Edited by Egopally on 1/24/2013 12:28 PM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
17750
I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.
Gear should matter.

Problem is, gear currently matters way way way way way too much in both PvE and PvP settings. Basically, all item level jumps in Mists of Pandaria should be cut in half.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
01/24/2013 12:11 PMPosted by Egopally
PVE does get easier with gear. That's why they normalized it in challenge mode to take that factor out. Gear is normalized on tournaments.


On tournaments, to make sure whatever team wins the number 1 prize doesn't get it through some unfair gear advantage.

PvE doesn't change. PvP does. PvP has way more variables to consider than PvE so normalizing it would just make it harder for those who have earned more than what they've gotten. I mean, if you've earned full malev, you should have that advantage over newer players. You should be able to beat on the people gearing up. You've taken your hell week and now you're going to dish it back. If it was stagnant, why would I want to PvP when everyone is equal to me and I've done more to become equal?


It's ok on tournaments, but not on live? I don't get it.

No I don't care for an advantage because it's not fun for me to global someone in greens and blues. Do you quit towards the end of the season when gear is more balanced at that point?

This is what mmo is truly about. I want to pwn noobs because I have no life grinding out gear before everyone. This is why I don't take this game seriously and neither should anyone.
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90 Undead Priest
6600
Then you shouldn't be playing an MMO. You're not entitled to fair PvP here, the PvP that got people hooked on it originated in Vanilla with ganking and battlegrounds, both which were heavily based on advantages in order to achieve fun. Skill is just another advantage.
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