The 5.2 blog is tricking most people

90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 12:29 PMPosted by Ashunera
I've heard this here and there over the years, and it comes up whenever we discuss gear in PvP. I get that the players who are really hard core about the pure, un-fettered idea of competition would prefer that PvP be a completely level playing field where skill is the sole determining factor in who rises to the top.
Gear should matter.

Problem is, gear currently matters way way way way way too much in both PvE and PvP settings. Basically, all item level jumps in Mists of Pandaria should be cut in half.


For what it's worth, I agree with you. Gear does matter too much right now. But the problem is, if our levels are to scale, then the gear must scale with it. =/ I wouldn't want to have ups that are only like 10-20 in all stats, I want to see Items that go up by more now especially since hit/expertise rating caps are higher at higher levels. It requires more so they need to make the ups give more.

01/24/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Positron
It's ok on tournaments, but not on live? I don't get it.


Please read Daxx's edit.
Edited by Egopally on 1/24/2013 12:35 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Part of the reason why I stopped PVP'ing this expansion was because I fell behind with my PvP set. Sure, I can run in with my PvE set, but I get slaughtered (likewise, I slaughter <everything> with my cooldowns up [like, legitimate 2/3-shot in some cases (70k Starfall crits*2/sec + 250k Starsurge Crits, spammed -- GG.)]). I can never catch up to the degree of players who even just PvP'd for half the season. So I gave up.

Having the conquest points be a seasonal cap will allow me to get back into PvP with the 'proper' gear. Sure, it might take a while, but at least I know I can catch up.

Also, we shouldn't be comparing PVE and PVP. PVP you are challenging others. PVE you are challenging yourself and your group. (Going for World Firsts, CM Best Times are the only exception, and lets face it--there's a very VERY low chance your in a Top 5 guild, or hold 1 of 9 of the best CM times).
Edited by Cyous on 1/24/2013 12:43 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0


The point is that challenge mode offers no progression so I fail to see how this fits in the rpg logic you guys are using.


For the record, it's my logic and personal opinion, not Blizzard's logic as a whole. And I already drew the distinction. Challenge Modes don't need to offer progression because they're not core gameplay, they're a niche pursuit. I would argue that PvP is core gameplay.


If it's not core gameplay then what's the point of challenge mode? What is it about core gameplay that requires a never ending treadmill?

The concept is exactly the same between rated pvp and challenge mode. The pursuit is going for best on the ladder.

As for other games, I've went over this. It's cosmetics. No other competitive game offers any stat advantage.

If you want to compare more then pvp should have ilvl matching just like pve. Can't do a dungeon without a certain ilvl and can't really progress in raids without a certain ilvl.

Aside from that a big reason why people bot in bgs is because they hate grinding the honor set just so they can be competitive.
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90 Troll Death Knight
9830
Is there any reason to think that what we need isn't a flat gear quality, but a flat PvP power/defense amount? From what I understand, the biggest problem is getting IN to the PvP season. Should PvP gear have a flat amount of PvP power/defense, then once you have a set of honor-quality gear (which in and of itself isn't all that hard) you can just keep improving that set without constantly getting rofl-stomped. As PvP gear gets better, the Main attributes can still go up (Strength, Intellect, Crit, Haste, etc) but it won't be quite the impassible mountain you get when you have no PvP power and your foe has ALOT of PvP defense. In order to keep PvE gear out of PvP, PvE gear would have to have less PvP power/defense, but still a flat amount. You'd still be able to upgrade your gear (thus contributing to the longevity of PvP as a whole), but instead of being immortal gods, highly geared individuals would be particular challenges.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 12:40 PMPosted by Positron
If it's not core gameplay then what's the point of challenge mode? What is it about core gameplay that requires a never ending treadmill?

It's an ode to skill and strategy.

Also, it's not the mechanics that makes PvE challenging, it's the coordination of up to 24 other players, and having every single player work in sync to achieve a kill.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7915


So, yes, we want competition to be fierce (which is part of the reason we're trying new ways of gearing in PvP), but speaking for myself, I don't see a future where getting new and cooler gear isn't part of the core World of Warcraft experience, including PvP. It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.


How is us farming 1 set not enough? I'm barely finishing this set without upgrades, to think I have to do this next season twice over is absurd.

PvP'ers don't play for the gear grind, we play for ratings/competition. There need to be incentives for players to grind higher ratings, because this route of having to grind more gear makes playing a chore which will undoubtedly lose players.
Edited by Science on 1/24/2013 12:51 PM PST
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28 Pandaren Mage
6235

It's also worth mentioning that, at the higher levels of competition toward the middle/end of a season, the playing field levels out to a significant degree as those players "finish" their PvP sets - or at least get close enough that decision making, skill, and coordination are the deciding factors in who wins a match, far more than a few stat points one way or another. Since a lot of these teams are also earning gear at about the same rates as the season progresses (and with catch up mechanics this will be more true than ever), it holds true throughout the season too.


Hey thanks for posting Dax,

I'm with you, gearing up is an integral part of wow, and I don't see it changing anytime soon, and I don't know that I want it to either. But in the spirit of Arena I can personally say that when that point of equilibrium is reached, when everyone is fully geared, the whole experience is that much smoother and more enjoyable. Why not encourage reaching this point quicker? I would suggest the following:

- No Conquest gear upgrades again, I dont think anyone really had a problem with upgrading their remaining Honor gear but having to upgrade Conq is just too demanding.

- No disparity between RBG and Arena cap, yes it is harder to coordinate 10 rather than 3 players, but RBG's seem to encourage too many exploits and are seemingly harder for you guys to control. Make the caps the same so those that choose to play RBG's do it because they enjoy them, not because they are better rewarded.

- A shorter period of time overall to fully gear up for pvp. Whether this is obtained through increasing the cap, or reducing the costs, or making the upgrade to elite gear require a total conq earned for the season but other than that, essentially just an even trade for the current non-elite conq gear.

I feel these changes would still stay true to the overall ideals of wow, while still promoting a level, and even spirit of competition.
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
Sure, I can run in with my PvE set, but I get slaughtered (likewise, I slaughter <everything> with my cooldowns up [like, legitimate 2/3-shot in some cases]).


Ahh, I missed those days in cata lol. Burst till I'm low, then bubble.

Also, we shouldn't be comparing PVE and PVP. PVP you are challenging others. PVE you are challenging yourself and your group. (Going for World Firsts, CM Best Times are the only exception).


I agree, but maybe for different reasons. One has Endless Variations while the other has a limited number. Ex. Stone guard will have any 3/4 bosses up at once. That limits the number of things that can happen.

In PvP, there can be any combination of classes, specs, talents, glyphs, etc. that will make your encounters against each player change. On top of that, players can learn from thier mistakes and may do different things when they're beaten once. In PvE, the tactics don't change, you do the same thing for every boss unless you're bored with a boss because he's so easy, that you try some other strategies out.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
01/24/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Conspiracy
Then you shouldn't be playing an MMO. You're not entitled to fair PvP here, the PvP that got people hooked on it originated in Vanilla with ganking and battlegrounds, both which were heavily based on advantages in order to achieve fun. Skill is just another advantage.


Which is part of the reason I quit in vanilla, but arenas were introduced in BC.

People are taking this mmo and rpg too liberally here. What mmo in the past has offered a pvp ladder? Guildwars did, but that game is an exception and in a grey area.

People do it for fun on tournaments so there are people like that. The other losers twink because the only way they can have fun is one shotting noobs.
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90 Human Warlock
12100
What about offering to do a separate q with everyone normalized to see everyones take on it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11150

For the record, it's my logic and personal opinion, not Blizzard's logic as a whole. And I already drew the distinction. Challenge Modes don't need to offer progression because they're not core gameplay, they're a niche pursuit. I would argue that PvP is core gameplay.


Can't we reach a middle ground where we upgrade and get gear like an rpg but have a month or so towards the end of the season where most people can be caught up and fight for titles? Say make the point cap or gear costs to where earning the full elite would take 3 months of a 4 month season at the basic 1800 point cap.

The concept needing so many points that it is hard to get them all by the end of the season brings up other issues as well, such as the necessity of rbgs to remain competitive since you get so many more points from it when some players(such as myself) really aren't interested in them.
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90 Tauren Druid
6030
01/24/2013 11:16 AMPosted by Daxxarri
World of Warcraft is a role playing game, though, and that model isn't actually all that great for the long term health of PvP in a game like this (and even presents logistical and design challenges when considering the potential role of PvE gear in PvP or vice versa). One of the very core elements of pretty much all RPGs, and World of Warcraft in particular, is acquiring gear, leveling up, and making your character more powerful. That's the red, rich marrow packed into the very bones of the experience, and along with the fun of the core gameplay, it's a big part of what makes the various pursuits in World of Warcraft rewarding. We like getting loot, and we think it's fun. Finally earning that new piece of gear, particularly one that's powerful or looks cool, is exciting and it feels good. In PvP, the reward for dedication and prowess is earning the right to that more powerful and/or cooler looking gear.

It seems like you guys are operating under the carrot-on-a-stick motivation paradigm. Whether or not a carrot is a good motivator for a task depends on the task. Loot is great for motivating people to quest and farm. It's a poor motivator for PvP or top tier PvE. When the task requires that you innovate, studies show that reward systems becomes a poor motivator. Sure rewards can be there, there's no harm in having them... unless... the reward system begins to interfere with what really motivates people to play.

Ask yourself why an Average Joe might pick up a guitar in the evenings and practice it. They enjoy it. They draw delight by improving at it. Would the Average Joe continue to practice the guitar if they were given buttons or plaques every time they mastered a new song? Probably. They might like that too. But what if the buttons and plaques were forced upon Joe in such a way that it interfered with his primary goal of mastering the instrument. Like maybe he couldn't move on to a new song until he had earned a plaque commemorating his mastery of his current song. How long would Joe continue practicing guitar after his efforts have been stymied by a particularly difficult song?

Gating PvP with arbitrary gear walls works directly against the forces that actually motivate MOST PEOPLE to participate. You think you guys are making carrots, when really you're making walls.
Edited by Clay on 1/24/2013 12:55 PM PST
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90 Undead Priest
6600
Guildwars did, but that game is an exception and in a grey area.

People do it for fun on tournaments so there are people like that. The other losers twink because the only way they can have fun is one shotting noobs.


I love how the only other MMO that really matters is an exception. Nice, no logic behind it being an exception too.

Those "losers" are your majority playerbase, and a lot of the reasons players play MMOs, to get stronger and then use your strength to have fun.

Sorry, but what you're looking for will never be found in this game. If you want me to, I could lead you to LoL or DoTA's websites.
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90 Troll Shaman
3880
I was late to Pandaria but I enjoyed it very much at first. Then I got a couple of toons up to 90, and as a casual player who prefers BGs to pve, I tuned out pretty darn quickly. The gear grind is simply painful. It's bad enough that I have to put up with the mindless zerg mentalities of most randoms in the big BGs. Doing so over and over and over, to very slowly acquire decent gear that won't ever quite get me on equal footing with many players... well, it's just lost its appeal.

Yes, I would enjoy the BGs after I became mediocre to middling in gear, but not enough to make up for all the grinding-- and next thing you know, a new season is here. As someone with a full-time job and full life, it's hard to imagine ever getting geared enough to seriously try rated BGs.

BGs are much, much more fun while leveling, because all it takes is a few heirlooms to be decent.

I tend to agree with Blizzard's overall design decisions and rationale, but not at all on this issue. PvP has become extremely unfriendly for busy "casuals".
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90 Tauren Paladin
10935
01/24/2013 12:51 PMPosted by Clay
How long would Joe continue practicing guitar after his efforts have been stymied by a particularly difficult song?


This reminds me of the battletron fight in the Brawl'gar arena O.o Man that fight is so horrible. (Still stuck on it)
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85 Draenei Shaman
10020
01/24/2013 12:44 PMPosted by Science
PvP'ers don't play for the gear grind, we play for ratings/competition. There need to be incentives for players to grind higher ratings, because this route of having to grind more gear makes playing a chore which will undoubtedly lose players.


What do you mean "will"? It looks like there's going to be half the gladiator spots of last season and it doesn't look like there's going to be any glad spots in 5v5 on any battlegroup (unless R1 is glad automatic).

They're gone and they're not coming back. It's not 2004 anymore and Everquest isn't the "world's best MMORPG" bar to clear anymore. No one MMORPG has or possibly could be a wow killer but it doesn't mean this game is immune to being bled to death from lots of smaller MMOs attracting a portion of the audience each time. And this is exactly what's happening in the PvP community right now.

People ask about serious balance problems and they get a handwave, some muttering about flashy videos and an upgrade system that just pissed all over any semblance of fair competition. I wonder why they quit?
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90 Troll Druid
11620
01/24/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Egopally
In PvE, the tactics don't change, you do the same thing for every boss unless you're bored with a boss because he's so easy, that you try some other strategies out.

I could argue that for PvP as well. Are there no obvious kill targets or strategies in PvP? Maybe you don't want someone freecasting so much? Maybe you need to lock down a player at a specific time? That's not to say say you handle PVP in the same way your would PVE, but there's certainly some strategy before the battle starts.

Also, you will never change strategies~if you got a kill with it. Unless your clearing 16/16H every week, you want to get back to your progression as fast as possible.
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90 Tauren Druid
6030
Arenas are a core RPG game element and therefore must have some gear progression?! What?
That's absurd.

Arena battles take place in an alternate game world reality, where abilities and items from the normal world are disabled in the interest of competition. It's clearly a suspension of the modus operandi.

Not a single person is saying: "When you're out in the world, gear shouldn't be a factor."
People are saying: "In this artificial environment created specifically to foster fair team competition, gear shouldn't be a factor."
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Guildwars did, but that game is an exception and in a grey area.

People do it for fun on tournaments so there are people like that. The other losers twink because the only way they can have fun is one shotting noobs.


I love how the only other MMO that really matters is an exception. Nice, no logic behind it being an exception too.

Those "losers" are your majority playerbase, and a lot of the reasons players play MMOs, to get stronger and then use your strength to have fun.

Sorry, but what you're looking for will never be found in this game. If you want me to, I could lead you to LoL or DoTA's websites.


There is no gear in Guildwars if you didn't know.

You can even make free max-level, pvp only characters with all the gear available to you. The gear choice was about tweaking similar to enchants and gems. There was no stat advantage.
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90 Worgen Mage
16810
01/24/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
World of Warcraft is an RPG, where pure competition by itself is not at the central essence of the game. I would argue that getting more powerful and beating faces in as a result of your increased bad-assery is part of our core experience, along with lots of other RPG core elements.


I don't want to derail the discussion here but that is 100% true. Unfortunately a lot of games coming out today pretend they're an RPG too, since it takes the competitiveness out of it. That's why the big tournaments usually feature fighting games, since they're one of the few pure competition games, outside of character unlocking. In fact I played 4 hours of Brawl last night online. Good times. (actually it was Project M but yeah).

To each their own, but I think latency plays too much of a factor in WoW anyway to say there's an equal playing field to begin with. I've played with 10ms and 200ms and it's huge. In FPS games that's mitigated because there's so many servers to pick from. Brawl lag...yeah it's pretty bad no matter what.

Either way, it's cool that the tournament realm exists for those who want an equal playing field, and there's fan tournaments and all that.
Edited by Digerati on 1/24/2013 1:11 PM PST
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