Lack-luster AoE healing abilities?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
11840
Stop asking for everything, if you want good AoE healing abilities, reroll a druid. Not every class should be the same and you don't get to change someone else's game you fvcking piece of whiney sh1t.

This is you: QQQQQQQQQQQQQ


I'm not asking for "everything", and had you read any of it, you would see that.

If I wanted to play a Druid, I would. I have a max level Mage and Deathknight in addition to this Paladin, and I think they're just fine. I also have a level 87 Priest and Warrior, followed by an 85 Rogue that I like to play, too.

My only issue is with Holy Radiance. I understand how the game works just fine, I've been playing World of Warcraft for a while now. It isn't my fault your transmog is ugly.

TLDR: DIAF.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
15660
World of Logs healing for MV has top 10 for each boss. 60 healers overall. 31 of them are Paladins. Thats 51%
HoF 21 out of 60 are paladins. Thats 35% of topping charts over other healing classes
TOES 26 out of 40 are paladins. 65% for this one.

Yes by all means buff pally aoe healing because they are not topping all healing spots.

I just hit 90 on my pally 2 days ago and I already see how op they are, its like being a shammy healer, disc priest and pally all rolled into one. Holy radiance doenst need any "boost" if u know what ur doing.
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90 Draenei Paladin
8040
Look, this thread has gotten a bit aggressive, i'm a terrible healer without addons and make no claims at being anything but an adequate shaman healer from BC through LK, but I'd like to chime in that I leveled this pally with the intent to heal 5 mans and found that aoe healing was a difficult thing to pull off initially as my gear has been bad.

Single target I was strong as soon as I entered the first heroic, aoe I was pretty bad and if people didn't dodge avoidable damage I was being blamed left and right for it. I think this is mostly because other healers were so strong at aoe healing that the idea that they needed to dodge or move out of the smoke cloud/fire. It's more a perception feeling but i wouldn't assign a paladin to aoe heal exclusively like I might a shaman/priest/druid unless it was a raid with only paladin healers.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11840
@Nubrondan

It isn't my fault if Druids, Shamans, Priests and Monks aren't on par with Paladins, or, that Paladins are "OP". Holy Radiance still sucks.

Those stats only reflect the fact that the healing classes, overall, need further tweaking.

I am also confident that it depends on which fight you are looking at. Paladins aren't good for every boss encounter. We don't have Mass Dispel, and can not remove curses. But I don't want Mass Dispel or the ability to remove curses. Priests can Mass Dispel, Shamans and Druids can remove curses, and that is something unique to those classes as an example.

And where their heals *may* lack, at the very least Discipline Priests make up for in being able to sustain a reasonable amount of DPS compared to Holy Paladins. While playing my own Priest, I like being able to Leap of Faith people out of situations where they would otherwise take massive amounts of damage, which saves me a fair amount of mana should I have had to just heal through it.

If you're only looking at meters, you're missing the point.
Edited by Caeralton on 1/22/2013 8:17 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11840
Look, this thread has gotten a bit aggressive, i'm a terrible healer without addons and make no claims at being anything but an adequate shaman healer from BC through LK, but I'd like to chime in that I leveled this pally with the intent to heal 5 mans and found that aoe healing was a difficult thing to pull off initially as my gear has been bad.

Single target I was strong as soon as I entered the first heroic, aoe I was pretty bad and if people didn't dodge avoidable damage I was being blamed left and right for it. I think this is mostly because other healers were so strong at aoe healing that the idea that they needed to dodge or move out of the smoke cloud/fire. It's more a perception feeling but i wouldn't assign a paladin to aoe heal exclusively like I might a shaman/priest/druid unless it was a raid with only paladin healers.


Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. Thank you.

See, I've noticed that too with people. They expect to pull an entire room and just be healed through it, and while I'm drinking to refill mana they're already pulling the next room. Or that Rogue who stands in front of the boss only to get cleaved to death? How about the Mage that gets impatient, pulls a group, runs back toward the group and goes invis? What about the hunter that has Aspect of the Pack turned on in a gauntlet event? What about the Deathknight that DG's everything, taking hits when they shouldn't because they don't have their DG glyphed? Or how about the doofus priest that gets into your LFR queued as a healer, but sits there spamming Mind Sear?

It isn't that I want the ability to heal stupid, because that just isn't fun. It isn't a challenge. But when your group is doing *everything* right, and you still fail? Yeah, it becomes a problem.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
16395
Paladins are not raid healers, nor will they ever be, GC does not like paladins...
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8030
I don't use macros or addons, they're a crutch! Situational awareness > addons/macros imo :D
(But, to each their own).

I found your problem.

Lets not go there shall we? Different discussion for a different thread.

01/22/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Caeralton
Don't tell me "we can't be the best at everything", because that isn't what I'm asking. I'm just saying that a SMALL boost to Holy Radiance is more than likely needed, because as it stands right now, it is totally lame. I go out of my way to avoid casting it if I can, because it is seriously that bad.

I honestly don't know if you are being serious or not, so I'll try to repeat myself one more time and see what happens. Say in the LFR you are running you notice a group of clustered people significantly below maximum health. Maby it's on windlord and a bunch of melee have just ate a whirling blade to the face. You are less then 3 hp, what do you do? You cast holy radiance, because it is going to hit >6 people, do a moderate amount of healing, and give you the all-important holy power to build to a LoD. Situations like that are what HR was designed for...think of the actual heal of HR as just an appetizer to tide you over until you get to what you were really after in the first place...your finisher LoD/EF.

This is how paladins work. It is what we are balanced around. It is why our spells cost more mana then other classes, because if done right a significant portion of our time is spent casting completely free heals from all that holy power we generate. Would it be nice if the range was larger? Sure it would. It would also be completely over powered for us to have (arguably) the best single/dual target healing in the game, great stacked aoe, and great spread aoe. Basically, it sounds like you are a bit stuck in last expansion's model for holy power. It is no longer a consolation prize. It is the entire goal of paladin healing. There simply is no way to buff HR's throughput, OR reduce its mana cost, without completly breaking us.

Edited for spelling!
Edited by Corvala on 1/22/2013 2:12 PM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
01/21/2013 11:15 AMPosted by Nasonia
As a note, I primarily use it on melee or when the group is clumped together. Stating that something is lackluster because it is situational is also nonsensical.


My group often runs melee heavy, which means I get to use it a lot on many fights, but even on average, it runs roughly 10% of my healing.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/22/2013 09:35 AMPosted by Corvala
This is how paladins work. It is what we are balanced around. It is why our spells cost more mana then other classes, because if done right a significant portion of our time is spent casting completely free heals from all that holy power we generate. Would it be nice if the rage was larger? Sure it would. It would also be completely over powered for us to have (arguably) the best single/dual target healing in the game, great stacked aoe, and great spread aoe. Basically, it sounds like you are a bit stuck in last expansion's model for holy power. It is no longer a consolation prize. It is the entire goal of paladin healing. There simply is no way to buff HR's throughput, OR reduce its mana cost, without completly breaking us.


Pretty much, agreed.

I'd like to see some change to our AoE that makes us more versatile for spread AoE, but it would involve a large overhaul of some mechanics and I'm not sure I'd be any more pleased with the results tbh. We're in a good place right now, even with some shortcomings.
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90 Draenei Paladin
8040
I think from my little experiance, i'd be happy with cast reduction on HR or even a spell that radiates healing from the beacon (similar to how the prisim spell works) with a trade off in single target effectiveness.

Multiple beacon types has actually been an idea I'd be behind, or giving seals a mechanics that makes their choice useful for all paladin specs.
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90 Draenei Paladin
13095
01/22/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Bruze
giving seals a mechanics that makes their choice useful for all paladin specs.


This sounds dangerously like a Holy Priest's Chakra, which was one of my primary reasons for going to a Paladin. Granted, making it a seal/stance rather than something you activate and with a cooldown is an improvement, but it still would gate our healing flexibility unnecessarily.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8030
01/22/2013 11:03 AMPosted by Tailias
I'd like to see some change to our AoE that makes us more versatile for spread AoE, but it would involve a large overhaul of some mechanics and I'm not sure I'd be any more pleased with the results tbh. We're in a good place right now, even with some shortcomings.

This is what I was getting at. A buff to holy radiance, be it range, power, or mana cost, would have to come with a nerf somewhere else. HR was specifically changed this exp to stop it from being our one size fits all spam heal. Buff HR, and it would necessitate a ripple of other adjustments, most likely involving a nerf of EF/LoD. Do we really want to go there?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10215
This is how paladins work. It is what we are balanced around. It is why our spells cost more mana then other classes, because if done right a significant portion of our time is spent casting completely free heals from all that holy power we generate. Would it be nice if the rage was larger? Sure it would. It would also be completely over powered for us to have (arguably) the best single/dual target healing in the game, great stacked aoe, and great spread aoe. Basically, it sounds like you are a bit stuck in last expansion's model for holy power. It is no longer a consolation prize. It is the entire goal of paladin healing. There simply is no way to buff HR's throughput, OR reduce its mana cost, without completely breaking us.


Completely agree with this. HR was an abomination in DS, not just because of mechanics but because it was spammable to boot. The spell is strong enough considering it's generating decent direct healing when placed correctly, a buff that gives you an additional aoe heal, mastery shields and a charge of that precious HoPo! I think you need to take the whole package into account before saying it's lackluster.

I just don't like the 10 yard deal, that seems kind of limited when compared to Prayer of Healing or Circle of healing, because as the WoW lore goes (lol) Paladins are priests in plate. Just sayin' ;p


We are Guardians/Bearers/Protectors of the Light. Priests are mediatory agents of the light. They are able to harness the light because we guarantee it's existence.
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90 Draenei Paladin
8040
01/22/2013 11:13 AMPosted by Tailias
This sounds dangerously like a Holy Priest's Chakra, which was one of my primary reasons for going to a Paladin. Granted, making it a seal/stance rather than something you activate and with a cooldown is an improvement, but it still would gate our healing flexibility unnecessarily.


yeah I don't know the solution, but that the seal mechanic was once something that felt like a shift on what you were doing that no longer has any real reason to exist to most paladins. If they didn't want to gut it then I think they should have it give flexibility to the roles the paladin fills.

Of course I still want the seal + judgement mechanic back, I felt like that was super paladin-y feeling to have a debuff tied to judgements and seals.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10765
01/22/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Corvala
range, power, or mana cost, would have to come with a nerf somewhere else. HR was specifically changed this exp to stop it from being our one size fits all spam heal. Buff HR, and it would necessitate a ripple of other adjustments, most likely involving a nerf of EF/LoD. Do we really want to go there?


Sometimes people really don't think through the consequences of what they're asking for.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11840
01/22/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Nasonia
range, power, or mana cost, would have to come with a nerf somewhere else. HR was specifically changed this exp to stop it from being our one size fits all spam heal. Buff HR, and it would necessitate a ripple of other adjustments, most likely involving a nerf of EF/LoD. Do we really want to go there?


Sometimes people really don't think through the consequences of what they're asking for.


If we get a *slight* buff to AoE healing, and take a *slight* nerf to maybe one direct healing spell, what are you really losing?

It just seems like a lazy way to "fix" the situation with tier gear set bonuses.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
Some small addendums. Note that our mana costs are inflated if you look at percentages rather than actual numbers. Our Base mana is 60k, not the 300k that priests use, so the mana costs are much narrower. 21,600 versus 13,500.

Glory mentioned the rest. Six targets versus five targets, +1 HP (free healing), Daybreak proc (more free healing), and it procs our Mastery on every target (so a generalized increase of +33%). And let's not forget Beacon healing! All of our AoE effects grant more.

A better comparison, I think, would be HR + Holy Shock/Daybreak + HR + LoD versus 3 Prayer of Healings, as they have similar mana costs and cast times (taking Beacon, Mastery, Insight, and all the priesty stuff into account).

Our AoE healing is certainly funky, though. We put out great numbers overall, but instead of being a full-on Smart heal or healing everyone equally, we kind of mix things up with spikey heals. The Beacon gets a crapton, then our initial targets of Holy Shock and Holy radiance get more, a small heal and Mastery are granted to everyone nearby via HR, and then some people get a bit more equalized with LoD. Paladins definitely require a lot more selective targeting. I don't mind, though. Beacon means that while I focus upon raid healing, I'm still keeping the MT up, as she normally takes at least autoattack damage during raid-wide booms.

I don't use HR in 5-man, but I'm not sure many classes do much AoE healing there anyways.
Edited by Wards on 1/22/2013 4:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7090
Why would you AoE heal in 5-mans anyway?
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
Because there are occasionally bosses that hit everyone for damage, and if an AoE heal hits everyone, it's more mana efficient and greater HPS than single targeting? And for paladins, if you use the Glyph of Light of Dawn, it especially isn't hard to find 4 targets with suitable injuries.

AoE heals don't have a "raid only" tag. Using them in 5-mans isn't going to cause their colors to bleed, mana cost to go increase, or healing to decrease by being mixed in with the rest of our spells. They're used precisely when they say they should, which is whenever you want to hit several targets in an area.
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