Incentive too high for 25?

10 Blood Elf Paladin
10
so your "incentive" to get people to raid 25, is to give them better odds at gear drops.

do I need to remind you how bad loot is in 10 man? we get 2 drops per boss. it isnt all roses.

now, you are rewarding a 25 man group with better gear, when they are doing the SAME CONTENT as a 10 man raid? if you have a job, and someone is getting paid more for the same work you are doing, wouldnt you be upset?

maybe I like doing 10 man raids with people I know well? maybe I dont want to do 25's? why should I be at a disadvantage just because of the raid format I prefer?

you made 10/25 share the same loot for a reason. now you are going against your own philosophy. care to explain why the change of heart?
37 Human Priest
500
You actually do arguably more work in a 10 man than in a 25 man. Blizzard has never made sense in these aspects.
89 Troll Shaman
7950
Whether or not the difficulty of the encounters is the same or not is irrelevent. You have to understand that having more people comes with increased margin of error and has more organization required. Not to mention getting 25 people together in the first place is more difficult.

Downing bosses may be the same, but 25 man is more difficult than 10 man and needs incentives. The proposed incentives are minor.
Edited by Dutran on 1/23/2013 10:20 AM PST
37 Human Priest
500
Whether or not the difficulty of the encounters is the same or not is irrelevent. You have to understand that having more people comes with increased margin of error and has more organization required. Not to mention getting 25 people together in the first place is more difficult.

Downing bosses may be the same, but 25 man is more difficult than 10 man and needs incentives. The proposed incentives are minor.


25 mans are not more difficult than 10 mans. It's much easier to carry someone in a 25 man than a 10 man.
90 Undead Warlock
12745
What is this? when did they say they were changing the loot?
90 Troll Hunter
8865
Whether or not the difficulty of the encounters is the same or not is irrelevent. You have to understand that having more people comes with increased margin of error and has more organization required. Not to mention getting 25 people together in the first place is more difficult.

Downing bosses may be the same, but 25 man is more difficult than 10 man and needs incentives. The proposed incentives are minor.


25 mans are not more difficult than 10 mans. It's much easier to carry someone in a 25 man than a 10 man.


In terms of dps, yes. In terms of mechanics, no. More chances for derp, same responsibility spread out over more players. They are also more difficult to organize. The individual work and responsibility a player does/has in a 10 man is much higher, but overall the chance of successfully forming a group and killing a boss is lower.

This is of course a generalization and does not apply to every boss.
Edited by Gulder on 1/23/2013 10:25 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
6765
They have more people, they need more loot.

How does that not make sense.

10 mans and 25 mans should be able to gear up their respective groups at a somewhat similar pace.

I do agree that more work is put in for 10 mans. There is a much larger margin of error.

Also, source for loot changes?
Edited by Mizani on 1/23/2013 10:25 AM PST
you made 10/25 share the same loot for a reason. now you are going against your own philosophy. care to explain why the change of heart?


because there's no incentive to do 25's... none at all.

This is an incentive - it makes sense, seems fair to me - if you go through the burden of organizing and fielding a 25-man raid, congrats, get a better chance at loot.

If you don't want to go through the hassle of a 25-man team, do 10. Its much easier and there are a lot more of them.
89 Troll Shaman
7950
Whether or not the difficulty of the encounters is the same or not is irrelevent. You have to understand that having more people comes with increased margin of error and has more organization required. Not to mention getting 25 people together in the first place is more difficult.

Downing bosses may be the same, but 25 man is more difficult than 10 man and needs incentives. The proposed incentives are minor.


25 mans are not more difficult than 10 mans. It's much easier to carry someone in a 25 man than a 10 man.


They are more difficult to create and maintain. That should be obvious. I never mentoned gameplay in my post, I don't think you even read it.

Why would anyone raid in 25 man anymore? Numbers have declined and there are few 25 man raiders left in comparison. Is that not a thing that needs fixing to you? As I said the proposed changes are a small increase of bosses dropping an already ultra-rare item. That is not game-breaking for 10mans.
100 Undead Priest
11735
I think the logic is that a 25m group is substantially harder to organize and maintain. In my humble opinion, though, the payoff for this is that 25m raids have some distinct advantages over a 10m raid.

I wholeheartedly agreed with Blizzards decision to have 25m content reward the same gear as 10m. I'm saddened to hear they are considering reversing this.
90 Blood Elf Priest
SSC
12740
I think it's a bigger problem that lfr will be droping 502 gear vs current 496 gear. Kinda of makes me wonder what the point of raiding is at all, if your not doing herioc or plan on shortly.
37 Human Priest
500


25 mans are not more difficult than 10 mans. It's much easier to carry someone in a 25 man than a 10 man.


In terms of dps, yes. In terms of mechanics, no. More chances for derp, same responsibility spread out over more players. They are also more difficult to organize. The individual work and responsibility a player does/has in a 10 man is much higher, but overall the chance of successfully forming a group and killing a boss is lower.

This is of course a generalization and does not apply to every boss.


Right but even if someone screws up mechanics in 25 mans it's usually much easier to recover from than in a 10 man. Exceptions are obvious things such as the Lich King's defile, but for most mechanics, recovery is much more likely in a 25.

They are more difficult to create and maintain. That should be obvious. I never mentoned gameplay in my post, I don't think you even read it.


Yes, and then, as I said, they are much easier in the actual RAID, i.e, actually downing fights, not forming up your party.
Edited by Pamance on 1/23/2013 10:29 AM PST
90 Undead Warlock
12745
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.


Ok, I read the whole thing, it's really not that big of a deal. It's not like it drops different loot, it's just a chance at higher loot and the 10 mans have the same chance.

why are 10's being put at a disadvantage by choosing that format?

wasnt the ENTIRE IDEA of giving 10/25 the same gear, to avoid this problem?


I think you may be overreacting a little bit.
Edited by Krankheit on 1/23/2013 10:29 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13400
Blizzard wants 10s and 25s to both be valid choices with roughly the same difficulty, accessibility, and rewards.

They want to make 25s better because they aren't as good right now, or at least they feel they have good reason to believe they're not.
90 Draenei Shaman
6020
Way to misinterpret the actual change.
What will be higher in 25mans is the chance that an item comes as thunderforged (same item but 6 ilvl higher)
As the chance for it will be low anyway on either 10 or 25 mans, it is not a significant change to make 25 mans considerably more rewarding than 10 mans, you still get the same itens, it's just a slight smaller chance of getting the "elite" versions

They have more people to gear up, makes sense to have a slight better chance at the upgraded loot, anyway
Edited by Kaylin on 1/23/2013 10:33 AM PST
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