Incentive too high for 25?

90 Night Elf Hunter
11335
I don't see this as a huge problem...

I mean, sure, 25 man might have a higher chance to drop it, but there's also more people competing for it, compared to a 10 man, where you might be the only player on that gear.


You're not that great at math are you? 25s already gear faster than 10s not only because they drop an extra piece of loot but because they have a higher chance of dropping your item every week.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10795
01/23/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Dubmatic
10 mans are a joke i dont even consider it raiding and the fact that these newbs can aquire the same loot w/out the same effort is garbage.


1/10
90 Night Elf Hunter
11335
01/23/2013 04:47 PMPosted by Dubmatic
10 mans are a joke i dont even consider it raiding and the fact that these newbs can aquire the same loot w/out the same effort is garbage.


10s are harder even blizz has said this. The difficulty for each individual is much greater than for 25s.
Edited by Hardshooter on 1/23/2013 4:52 PM PST
Community Manager
01/23/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Muxx
Bashiok its not so much a slap in the face as OP says, but this is something that is going to be HIGHLY annoying to both 10 and 25 man. Its going to cause the mind set of if I upgrade my heroic (insert slot here) and then next week the Heroic Thunderforged weapon drops I will have wasted 1500 valor upgrading that item possibly.


Making a choice to spend currency and then receiving an upgrade soon afterward that makes that choice sub-optimal was not created with Thunderforged items, and will continue long after they're no longer viable.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8455
so your "incentive" to get people to raid 25, is to give them better odds at gear drops.

do I need to remind you how bad loot is in 10 man? we get 2 drops per boss. it isnt all roses.

now, you are rewarding a 25 man group with better gear, when they are doing the SAME CONTENT as a 10 man raid? if you have a job, and someone is getting paid more for the same work you are doing, wouldnt you be upset?

maybe I like doing 10 man raids with people I know well? maybe I dont want to do 25's? why should I be at a disadvantage just because of the raid format I prefer?

you made 10/25 share the same loot for a reason. now you are going against your own philosophy. care to explain why the change of heart?


It's more like a salary is split amongst all the workers. You can't just add more workers and not expect to pay more, There's more people to gear so you have to have more loot.
90 Dwarf Hunter
18835
01/23/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Muxx
Bashiok its not so much a slap in the face as OP says, but this is something that is going to be HIGHLY annoying to both 10 and 25 man. Its going to cause the mind set of if I upgrade my heroic (insert slot here) and then next week the Heroic Thunderforged weapon drops I will have wasted 1500 valor upgrading that item possibly.

Won't be a problem for the first several months. There won't be an upgrade NPC when 5.2 goes live. And it won't return until 5.3 at the earliest.
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
Blizzard's two biggest infatuations: 10man raiding and RNG. I cannot imagine the smiles on the faces around that place.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
12690
01/23/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Muxx
Bashiok its not so much a slap in the face as OP says, but this is something that is going to be HIGHLY annoying to both 10 and 25 man. Its going to cause the mind set of if I upgrade my heroic (insert slot here) and then next week the Heroic Thunderforged weapon drops I will have wasted 1500 valor upgrading that item possibly.


Please review the following:

01/14/2013 10:00 AMPosted by Bashiok
Ok ok, fourth wall broken, we’re actually just temporarily removing them from the game for 5.2 due to the new raid tier.

By "them," he means the Item Upgrade NPCs in the Shrines. There will be no issue with upgrading via VP and then suddenly getting a drop that made your choice invalid, because you will not be upgrading via VP in 5.2
90 Tauren Druid
19270
01/23/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Bashiok
It is still a chance. There will be cases where a 10-player raid will have more Thunderforged items than a 25-player raid.


yes because this thunderforged idea will only cause 25 mans to break up even faster.... ../shrug.

I've yet to see a 25 man raider who even likes this option, myself included.
90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Incentive for me to care about running 25 mans is not gear. Incentive for me to want to raid 25 mans is about lockouts. I used to do 10's and 25's back in LK- I found it fun and it helped me get to know more people on my server.

Every week, I have someone asking me if I want to heal such and such raid- and it's normally the one I'm saved to.

As it is, I had to level up Xileki for my guild's 10 man run because this one is committed to another raid group who is doing 25's.

I can quite honestly say I do not like the shared lockout system. It's stiffling for those of us that want to help out other peoples raid groups.

But, I also think if we were to go back to a separate system, the gear levels need to stay the same between the two. In LK, 10's were considered a joke (thus why there's this whole 10 vs 25 debate).

Just my opinion- of course.
Edited by Jujubiju on 1/23/2013 4:59 PM PST
90 Dwarf Hunter
10525
01/23/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Pamance
You actually do arguably more work in a 10 man than in a 25 man. Blizzard has never made sense in these aspects.


So if that's the case why not do 25's? Zing.....
90 Night Elf Hunter
11335
01/23/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Beatrice
By "them," he means the Item Upgrade NPCs in the Shrines. There will be no issue with upgrading via VP and then suddenly getting a drop that made your choice invalid, because you will not be upgrading via VP in 5.2


Its going to feel bittersweet when you wait 2 months for a thunderforged weapon to drop and replace your upgraded version. Or will it?
Edited by Hardshooter on 1/23/2013 5:02 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
I don't see this as a huge problem...

I mean, sure, 25 man might have a higher chance to drop it, but there's also more people competing for it, compared to a 10 man, where you might be the only player on that gear.


And here is the underlying problem with 10 v 25 man loot.

In a 25man you may be competing for the item, you may not.
In a 10man theres a good chance it's a blood spirit because no one can use it.

10s get much less loot per player in a raid and take a lot longer to gear than a 25man largly due to loot drops being often wrong spec items. This doesn't occur in a 25man raid nearly as often.

First week of new content, 100% of the items in a 25man raid are used by someone. 10 bosses. 6 items each... that's 60 upgrades!
in a 10 man raid, 20 items drop, you'd be really fortunate to use half of them. 10 upgrades.
90 Tauren Druid
19270
01/23/2013 05:00 PMPosted by Avastbank
First week of new content, 100% of the items in a 25man raid are used by someone. 10 bosses. 6 items each... that's 60 upgrades!


First kill of H lei shi. 3 hunter bows... 1 hunter. We get screwed by loot drops too you know.
90 Human Death Knight
12130
Bashiok its not so much a slap in the face as OP says, but this is something that is going to be HIGHLY annoying to both 10 and 25 man. Its going to cause the mind set of if I upgrade my heroic (insert slot here) and then next week the Heroic Thunderforged weapon drops I will have wasted 1500 valor upgrading that item possibly.


Making a choice to spend currency and then receiving an upgrade soon afterward that makes that choice sub-optimal was not created with Thunderforged items, and will continue long after they're no longer viable.


Why is it the issue of logistics being ignored.

Adding better quality loot doesn't decrease the logistical pressure on 25man raids. it increases it, it will directly increase loot drama.

Why =(. Why can't blizzard listen and make changes to decrease logistical issues.

Just make changes that make it easier to construct raids and keep a raid group together.

You can ignore loot.
Edited by Cervarius on 1/23/2013 5:02 PM PST
90 Orc Warlock
11615
I couldn't care less either way as a 10-man casual raider, but I can spot a terrible idea in the making when I see one.

Don't make the incentives loot-based in a game that revolves around loot being the key to content progression. The problems with 25-man raids have to do with logistics and administration. Find a solution that addresses those issues and keep the loot-to-player ratio in 10s and 25s as they are, irrespective of item iLevel.

Some suggestions include bringing back guild flask cauldrons for 25-man raids only. Tie the recipe to a 25-man achievement perhaps. Make the lives of 25-man guild officers and GMs easier. Give 25-man guilds perks that help keep their raids well-fed, flasked, etc. If people truly don't like to run larger raids because of logistic setbacks then any attempt to lighten the burden would be welcome.
90 Orc Hunter
6330
My opinion is.. we have yet to see how much that increased "chance" really is. If it's absurdly good, which it doesn't sound like it as of right now, that would of course make 25m feel obligatory to some people.

*Actually even if it was a moderately better chance instead of a slight increase it would still make some people feel obligated to run 25m again.
Edited by Chuglug on 1/23/2013 5:06 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
01/23/2013 05:01 PMPosted by Waraila
First week of new content, 100% of the items in a 25man raid are used by someone. 10 bosses. 6 items each... that's 60 upgrades!


First kill of H lei shi. 3 hunter bows... 1 hunter. We get screwed by loot drops too you know.


We were working on heroic Sha before our hunter saw a heroic weapon.
Do you understand now?
90 Night Elf Hunter
11335
I didn't see any problems in the way 10s and 25s work right now. No one is forcing anyone to anything. If people wanted to raid 25s then I think they would raid 25s, you don't need to hold people's hands and tell them to go over there and raid 25s because we believe they are better. That's not your decision to make. Nice way to crap on 10s.
Edited by Hardshooter on 1/23/2013 5:07 PM PST
90 Dwarf Hunter
10525
01/23/2013 05:01 PMPosted by Waraila
First week of new content, 100% of the items in a 25man raid are used by someone. 10 bosses. 6 items each... that's 60 upgrades!


First kill of H lei shi. 3 hunter bows... 1 hunter. We get screwed by loot drops too you know.


So that happens every week? Oh and it drops a gun, not a bow, either you are fibbing are just do not know your loot. Just sayin!
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