Incentive too high for 25?

90 Draenei Warrior
14560
They could have easily gone back to 25's awarding better gear.

This is fine.

Signed,
-10 man raider
90 Dwarf Warlock
17395
01/23/2013 05:01 PMPosted by Waraila
First week of new content, 100% of the items in a 25man raid are used by someone. 10 bosses. 6 items each... that's 60 upgrades!


First kill of H lei shi. 3 hunter bows... 1 hunter. We get screwed by loot drops too you know.


Yeah, but it's not like you're running a 10man and the gun dropped with no Hunter in the group.

Or in a 10man when half your raid is conq and you're vendoring Prot/Vanq tokens week after week. It IS possible that 25 mans are at the mercy of RNG, but chances of getting something useful are SO much higher than in 10 mans.
100 Blood Elf Priest
11630
01/23/2013 04:53 PMPosted by Achennis
It's more like a salary is split amongst all the workers. You can't just add more workers and not expect to pay more, There's more people to gear so you have to have more loot.


25s already do have more loot - 6 drops for 25 people (1 drop per 4.16 people), versus 2 drops for 10 (1 drop per 5 people).
Edited by Niia on 1/23/2013 5:07 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
01/23/2013 05:02 PMPosted by Cervarius


Making a choice to spend currency and then receiving an upgrade soon afterward that makes that choice sub-optimal was not created with Thunderforged items, and will continue long after they're no longer viable.


Why is it the issue of logistics being ignored.

Adding better quality loot doesn't decrease the logistical pressure on 25man raids. it increases it, it will directly increase loot drama.

Why =(. Why can't blizzard listen and make changes to decrease logistical issues.

Just make changes that make it easier to construct raids and keep a raid group together.

You can ignore loot.


Because it is about what THEY think or what THEY want. 25mans will still be dying off and from the looks of things they do not care. February call numbers will show some insight into their "awesome" choices of late. Annual Pass is over and the newness of MoP is wearing off. They will not run login polls because it will be something they know but are afraid to see.
100 Tauren Druid
20550
So that happens every week? Oh and it drops a gun, not a bow, either you are fibbing are just do not know your loot. Just sayin!


./shrug don't pay much attention to hunter loot. It was 3 hunter weapons. bow/gun all the same to me given I'm a druid.

Point is, I recall back in DS all we got from spine was tanking trinkets all day long.... week in week out. It was rare to see the agil one... so yes, 25 mans can see the same loot drop week in and week out and fall behind on gearing too. It's not just 10s that get rng screwed by the drops.

All I see is 10 mans wanting their cake and eating it. Whilst I know as a 25 man raider this thunderforged rubbish will kill 25 man raids off rather than help it, you seem to not care that you're running the easier to play format. Not difficultywise but logistics / mechanics and actual less players to screw up.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
01/23/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Niia
It's more like a salary is split amongst all the workers. You can't just add more workers and not expect to pay more, There's more people to gear so you have to have more loot.


25s already do have more loot - 6 drops for 25 people (1 drop per 4.16 people), versus 2 drops for 10 (1 drop per 5 people).


And those 6 items are far more often used, than the 2 in a 10man.
25s already have a large loot advantage over 10s.
90 Night Elf Hunter
11335
They could have easily gone back to 25's awarding better gear.

This is fine.

Signed,
-10 man raider


If you did that I would quit the game tomorrow don't feel like raiding 25s. Just saying.
Edited by Hardshooter on 1/23/2013 5:10 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605

All I see is 10 mans wanting their cake and eating it. Whilst I know as a 25 man raider this thunderforged rubbish will kill 25 man raids off rather than help it, you seem to not care that you're running the easier to play format. Not difficultywise but logistics / mechanics and actual less players to screw up.


You have no idea what you're talking about.
In a 10 man, someone screws up, it's more often than not a wipe.
In a 25 man just use one of your 3 battle res, while someone else covers their healing/dps assignement and keep going.

Even a progressed 25man can carry an average player or two while undergeared. 10s cannot.
100 Tauren Druid
20550
And those 6 items are far more often used, than the 2 in a 10man.
25s already have a large loot advantage over 10s.


So why aren't YOU running 25s if you think you get more loot out of it? Remember there's more competition in 25s too for those items unlike 10s.

01/23/2013 05:10 PMPosted by Avastbank
In a 25 man just use one of your 3 battle res, while someone else covers their healing/dps assignement and keep going.


Nope it's also a wipe. Your 1 rez = our 3 rezzes due to AMOUNT of people but 1 mistake can still raid wipe us....
Edited by Waraila on 1/23/2013 5:11 PM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
FFS
13680
The reality here is that 25 man does nothing to warrant a better chance at gear.
It's irrelevant to the argument just how much harder 25 man may be to run. If you don't want to run a 25 man, then don't, but don't expect a perk for doing it. This whole idea is ridiculous on every level. Also, if anyone thinks that running a 25 man is more difficult that running a 10 man on a low pop/ highly imbalanced server, then you should try it sometime.
Rewarding a group of people simply for being a bigger group is insulting, especially to people trying to make it work on servers that are completely imbalance or low pop, as they only face the choice of being a 10 man raid, or pay even more money to transfer/ faction change, as blizz is making no progress in dealing with these issues. Rerolling isn't an option for a lot of people either as they have things to do besides devoting more time to leveling on another server just to be somewhere that has people there.
Rewarding 25 man raids in any way, even if it is only a little better chance at Thunderforged gear, is showing a bias. If you want to bring back 25 mans, blizz, then fix the server imbalances and swallow your ego long enough to accept your player base loss and close down some servers rather than reward the 25 mans that currently exist for doing nothing and making anyone else who wants the same chance at the gear feel like they need to spend more money or waste even more time leveling just to get somewhere that they can be in a 25man raiding guild.
90 Night Elf Hunter
11335
So why aren't YOU running 25s if you think you get more loot out of it? Remember there's more competition in 25s too for those items unlike 10s.


Your bad at math hey?
90 Dwarf Warlock
17395
And those 6 items are far more often used, than the 2 in a 10man.
25s already have a large loot advantage over 10s.


So why aren't YOU running 25s if you think you get more loot out of it? Remember there's more competition in 25s too for those items unlike 10s.

01/23/2013 05:10 PMPosted by Avastbank
In a 25 man just use one of your 3 battle res, while someone else covers their healing/dps assignement and keep going.


Nope it's also a wipe. Your 1 rez = our 3 rezzes due to AMOUNT of people but 1 mistake can still raid wipe us....


Pretty sure Avast used to be 25 mans up until Firelands(?).
100 Night Elf Druid
16385
And those 6 items are far more often used, than the 2 in a 10man.
25s already have a large loot advantage over 10s.


So why aren't YOU running 25s if you think you get more loot out of it? Remember there's more competition in 25s too for those items unlike 10s.

01/23/2013 05:10 PMPosted by Avastbank
In a 25 man just use one of your 3 battle res, while someone else covers their healing/dps assignement and keep going.


Nope it's also a wipe. Your 1 rez = our 3 rezzes due to AMOUNT of people but 1 mistake can still raid wipe us....


That entirely depends on the fight mechanics in some cases you're right in other cases not so much so. But regardless a lot of people aren't super motivated by loot anyways and why I think a chance at 6ilvls isn't going to do anything to the current status of 25 mans.
90 Night Elf Druid
15810


So why aren't YOU running 25s if you think you get more loot out of it? Remember there's more competition in 25s too for those items unlike 10s.



Nope it's also a wipe. Your 1 rez = our 3 rezzes due to AMOUNT of people but 1 mistake can still raid wipe us....


Pretty sure Avast used to be 25 mans up until Firelands(?).


Most 10man raiders were but they couldn't or wouldn't get carried by easy 25man mode so they decided to go hardcore and do 10man where it is so much harder...oh wait.
100 Tauren Druid
20550
01/23/2013 05:12 PMPosted by Awkward
Pretty sure Avast used to be 25 mans up until Firelands(?).


T11 rarely had unrecoverable mistakes in 10 /25 unless you used up all your rezzed then lost someone important.

This tier? 1 person screwing up on windbombs = wipe, 1 person screwing up on pheramones = wipe, 1 person not interrupting themselves on amber? Wipe. And 25 man raids have more people that can trigger this condition, not only that 25 mans have more players to spread out in the same room as 10s. So there's a a lot bigger possibilities of someone wiping your group.
90 Undead Priest
19095
maybe I like doing 10 man raids with people I know well? maybe I dont want to do 25's? why should I be at a disadvantage just because of the raid format I prefer?


Welcome to the life of 25 man raiders.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
Point of this thread : Incentive too high for 25s...

25s already have a loot advantage over 10s.
Increasing this advantage is a bit of a slap in the face to 10man guilds and doesn't encourage 25man raiding. So what's the point? Just upsetting 10man raiding guilds, which is the majority of raiders.
91 Blood Elf Warlock
3475
[quote]First week of new content, 100% of the items in a 25man raid are used by someone. 10 bosses. 6 items each... that's 60 upgrades!
in a 10 man raid, 20 items drop, you'd be really fortunate to use half of them. 10 upgrades.


Yes, I often find when moving between tiers I immediately replace all of my Heroic items from the previous tier with the lower level items that drop the first few weeks of a new tier ...

At the moment I am raiding heroic content in both 10 and 25s (separate guilds/characters). I find in my 10 we rarely shard anything because eight of our ten players are hybrids and they maintain offspecs (whether for questing or actual use in raid). Charms exist to alleviate the problem of "bad" drops, as well. If your 10 has both bad drops and unlucky charm use, then that certainly sucks, but it's not universal.
90 Dwarf Warlock
17395
01/23/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Waraila
Pretty sure Avast used to be 25 mans up until Firelands(?).


T11 rarely had unrecoverable mistakes in 10 /25 unless you used up all your rezzed then lost someone important.

This tier? 1 person screwing up on windbombs = wipe, 1 person screwing up on pheramones = wipe, 1 person not interrupting themselves on amber? Wipe. And 25 man raids have more people that can trigger this condition, not only that 25 mans have more players to spread out in the same room as 10s. So there's a a lot bigger possibilities of someone wiping your group.


I know this. As someone who has raided both formats this tier, there are pros and cons to both 10's and 25's.

Wind Bombs on Heroic Windlord 25 progression...

*Shudders*
100 Tauren Druid
20550
Wind Bombs on Heroic Windlord 25 progression...

*Shudders*


Only took us 1 night of windbomb wipes to kill him, but every week people still mess up windbombs at least on one pull... <.<

Still ambershaper progression /dies.
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