Incentive too high for 25?

1 Pandaren Mage
0
Sanctified, you were stupid on the R&D forums, you're stupid now that you fled us to try and gain the casual favor.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
01/23/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Waraila
Pretty sure Avast used to be 25 mans up until Firelands(?).


T11 rarely had unrecoverable mistakes in 10 /25 unless you used up all your rezzed then lost someone important.

This tier? 1 person screwing up on windbombs = wipe, 1 person screwing up on pheramones = wipe, 1 person not interrupting themselves on amber? Wipe. And 25 man raids have more people that can trigger this condition, not only that 25 mans have more players to spread out in the same room as 10s. So there's a a lot bigger possibilities of someone wiping your group.


The difference comes into play more when you're 2 healing a fight.
healer dead = 50% of healers in the raid dead. Even with a res they're now oom and likely leading towards a wipe. This isn't the case in a 25man.

An interrupter dying on protectors when it's their turn. No one else to interrupt in their place. Wipe. This isn't the case in a 25man.

Yes some mechanics cause a wipe in 25 or 10man due to the nature of the encounter.
There isn't a single example of a death / res in a 25man being more of a challenge to overcome than it's 10man counterpart.
100 Draenei Shaman
20035

Yes some mechanics cause a wipe in 25 or 10man due to the nature of the encounter.
There isn't a single example of a death / res in a 25man being more of a challenge to overcome than it's 10man counterpart.

You've never done any high end 25m progression then, because almost every fight was a tight enrage so we couldn't lose a dps or we wouldn't make it such as Heroic Gara'jal and Heroic Garalon, or a very healing intensive fight where if we lost 1 healer it all went to hell such as Heroic Will and Heroic Empress. Then both problems for Heroic Sha So you're completely wrong.
85 Night Elf Druid
18000
01/23/2013 04:17 PMPosted by Casmavara
How about the drop chance for the items be the same on both formats but from now on mounts from raids will only drop on 25 man. That way there is no loot disparity between the two and the only difference would be pure vanity.
90 Night Elf Rogue
8670
A major problem is the lack of instances (referring to examples, not dungeons) where we, the players, are encouraged to partake in large group activities. Imagine a zone with an active war, similar to old AV (for PvP) or the Battle for the Undercity and the final DK battle. A system in place that determines your participation (damage done, kills, support, heals, damage taken from targets, etc) or interaction with the environment (objectives) and rewards accordingly.

Now, we'd have to remember that the goal is to instill that sense of large groups being more enjoyable, not a focus on solely what digital goods you get. The rewards can't be something that people can abuse for quick endgame, nor can it be something to be monopolized or abused (e.g. AFKers). Things like VP/CP? More than likely not a possibility. Currency exclusive to the zone? Maybe, but purchased goods would have to be vanity or something to benefit the zone. These are just things off the top of my head (meaning they're not thought through well).

Of course, this is a HUGE project to undertake. But getting people away from what's generally easy is not something you can do with "candy", especially when it means others feel neglected for it. You have to take the long route and show people how much fun large group activities can be. Reward people for helping each other out (e.g. extremely minor benefits for reviving people who die or throw out buffs in the area).

It could even be a leveling zone, experience based on participation. Just something to bring back the fun of socialized gaming and the consequences of players with poor conduct that founded the MMO genre.
90 Blood Elf Priest
SSC
12740
You ever think part of the problem is that there's alot of servers that donn't have the population to support a 25 man?
100 Draenei Shaman
17750
01/23/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Bashiok
It is still a chance. There will be cases where a 10-player raid will have more Thunderforged items than a 25-player raid.
Being in a leadership role in both a 10 and 25, I certainly don't agree with the OP saying this is a "slap in the face".

However, I do feel this incentive isn't the right kind. If you want to provide an item level advantage to 25s (which this change does) it needs to be consistent, not half-assed and random.

If you don't want to provide an item level advantage to 25s, the incentive for 25s should be a huge quality-of-life advantage to offset the logistics of running one, such as a break from the valor points and lesser charms grinds.

My opinion? 25s should have an item level advantage and should be made to be a little more difficult across the board than 10s, going back to the ICC model (with some iteration). But I can tell you objectively as someone in a leadership role in both settings that this change will not accomplish anything.
90 Human Death Knight
9995
01/23/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd
do I need to remind you how bad loot is in 10 man? we get 2 drops per boss. it isnt all roses.

i hate to break it to ya but 25 gets the the same amount of loot as a 10 man comparitively....you get one drop per 5 people in the raid, 10 man gets 2 drops, 25 man gets 5, same exact thing....and the incentive too high? keep in mind this lightforged gear also drops in 10 man, they said 25 man will have a SLIGHTLY higher drop chance...in the end everyone has an opinion, but seriously, shut up...all you people do is complain
Community Manager
I think the types of conversations taking place, if nothing else, show that it's at least an engaging change that could mean... something. We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea, or maybe we all forget about the forums posts we're making right now because it becomes a solid and accepted part of the game's itemization. In the meantime, your feedback, and back-and-forths, and thoughts, are helpful.
Edited by Bashiok on 1/23/2013 5:38 PM PST
90 Worgen Warlock
11955
01/23/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Bashiok
It is still a chance. There will be cases where a 10-player raid will have more Thunderforged items than a 25-player raid.


The same chance a 10 man had at making dragonwrath legendary staff before a 25 man completed it, is what he means I think.
100 Draenei Shaman
17750
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Genada
You ever think part of the problem is that there's alot of servers that donn't have the population to support a 25 man?
This is actually highly unlikely, most servers are capable of supporting a 25 man guild or two at some level of play. There simply isn't any incentive for people to put in the extra effort required to do so. There are more than 25 players at max level online on your faction at any given time. It can absolutely be done. There's just no reason to, so it doesn't happen.
100 Draenei Mage
20790
you should not get more loot just because you found 15 more people with a pulse to join your raid.

it is not harder.

in fact, I can cite several examples where 10 is actually harder. empress 10 on heroic for example.


Maybe 1 or 2 in the past 4 tiers? The vast majority of encounters have been manifestly more difficult in the 25 man setting.

Blizzard did a good job in T11 overall, except for H. Al'Akir. But then gave the game away to 10 man raiders with Firelands and Dragon Soul both. Hagara was probably slightly harder in 10, but Ultraxion, Yor'sahj, Warmaster Blackhorn, and the penultimate encounter - Trash of Deathwing's Back - the difference was ridiculous. Madness was a complete give away in both sizes.

Now you have Stone Guard, which just omits a random mechanic depending on the week, and Spirit Kings which is the biggest fairytale I've seen in a long time.
90 Dwarf Monk
13600
IMO, they really should just kill 25 mans.

They forced 40 mans to shrink to 25, why not force 25 to shrink to 10 or 15?
Edited by Brewfist on 1/23/2013 5:41 PM PST
100 Tauren Druid
21550
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea,


Assuming 25s are still in existence. All this idea is doing is creating logistical nightmares for 25s.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605

Yes some mechanics cause a wipe in 25 or 10man due to the nature of the encounter.
There isn't a single example of a death / res in a 25man being more of a challenge to overcome than it's 10man counterpart.

You've never done any high end 25m progression then, because almost every fight was a tight enrage so we couldn't lose a dps or we wouldn't make it such as Heroic Gara'jal and Heroic Garalon, or a very healing intensive fight where if we lost 1 healer it all went to hell such as Heroic Will and Heroic Empress. Then both problems for Heroic Sha So you're completely wrong.


I said MORE of a challenge. Did you read my post?
90 Worgen Warlock
11955
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think the types of conversations taking place, if nothing else, show that it's at least an engaging change that could mean... something. We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea, or maybe we all forget about the forums posts we're making right now because it becomes a solid and accepted part of the game's itemization. In the meantime, your feedback, and back-and-forths, and thoughts, are helpful.


I don't think having rarer weapons drop makes killing the same boss every week any more interesting. This game needs more dynamic events outside (or even inside) raids. Having more raid bosses helps the situation some but after awhile I don't care if the first boss drops legendaries its still boring.
100 Draenei Shaman
13505
Great. So since I don't have a computer to run 25 man, I'm now completely forsaken on the ability to get the best loot. I run fine in 10s, (20-30fps) but I can barely do LFR for my framerate, and the only redeeming quality is that most of the mechanics in lfr are forgivable if you lag through them.

But now, not only do I have to do harder bosses on 10man, I get lower ilvl loot, and less of it.

Blizzard should recognize that the difficulty of raiding should come AFTER you're in the instance, not before.
100 Undead Priest
6680
they force pvper's to do rbg's likewise they should force raiders to do 25 mans
100 Draenei Shaman
17750
But now, not only do I have to do some harder, some easier bosses on 10man,
Fixed that for you.
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