Incentive too high for 25?

87 Worgen Mage
12095
Great. So since I don't have a computer to run 25 man, I'm now completely forsaken on the ability to get the best loot. I run fine in 10s, (20-30fps) but I can barely do LFR for my framerate, and the only redeeming quality is that most of the mechanics in lfr are forgivable if you lag through them.

But now, not only do I have to do harder bosses on 10man, I get lower ilvl loot, and less of it.

Blizzard should recognize that the difficulty of raiding should come AFTER you're in the instance, not before.


You clearly didn't read the update at all. The same item level is available in both 25 and 10 man.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Øriax
do I need to remind you how bad loot is in 10 man? we get 2 drops per boss. it isnt all roses.
i hate to break it to ya but 25 gets the the same amount of loot as a 10 man comparitively....you get one drop per 5 people in the raid, 10 man gets 2 drops, 25 man gets 5, same exact thing....and the incentive too high? keep in mind this lightforged gear also drops in 10 man, they said 25 man will have a SLIGHTLY higher drop chance...in the end everyone has an opinion, but seriously, shut up...all you people do is complain


25s get more. Pure and simple. They get 6, not 5 per boss. In addition the likely usefulness of the 6 is higher than the 2 in 10man.
90 Orc Shaman
13885
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think the types of conversations taking place, if nothing else, show that it's at least an engaging change that could mean... something. We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea, or maybe we all forget about the forums posts we're making right now because it becomes a solid and accepted part of the game's itemization. In the meantime, your feedback, and back-and-forths, and thoughts, are helpful.


I definitely think "Thunderforged" is a step in the right direction. BUT, if we continue with the upgrade system, its going to cause people to select tier and whatever items are not able to be "Thunderforged" as the priority for their valued Upgrades.

I like that its random, but also hate the fact that its random :x. Also don't see this as a HUGE incentive to go back to 25m as in 10m I like feeling that knoweledge that if I screw up it could cause the group to die. I think this might be a band-aid to the overall problem and that there is other avenue's that can be taken to make me want to go back to 25m.

I hope this works out well though, I'm not totally against the idea but am nervous about upgrading an item, and feel I will wait for a thunderforged item to drop before I upgrade something else still, as I do right now rather than upgrading my staff I'm gonna hang on to my valor for the mace. :x
Edited by Muxx on 1/23/2013 5:49 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
16945
Pending the different % for the Thunderforged items, I'm perfectly fine with this change.

/opinion of a 10m raider.
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world doesn't owe you anything, it was here first." -Mark Twain
90 Night Elf Rogue
8670
Great. So since I don't have a computer to run 25 man, I'm now completely forsaken on the ability to get the best loot. I run fine in 10s, (20-30fps) but I can barely do LFR for my framerate, and the only redeeming quality is that most of the mechanics in lfr are forgivable if you lag through them.

But now, not only do I have to do harder bosses on 10man, I get lower ilvl loot, and less of it.

Blizzard should recognize that the difficulty of raiding should come AFTER you're in the instance, not before.


The frequency is increased, rewards are the same. So you are quite misguided on your false inability to get the best loot.
90 Worgen Warlock
12345
Upgrading gear is artificial way of nerfing content. Just push out content faster and stop trying to make existing content last longer with stupid things like thunderforged. It is not interesting.
100 Draenei Shaman
19615

You've never done any high end 25m progression then, because almost every fight was a tight enrage so we couldn't lose a dps or we wouldn't make it such as Heroic Gara'jal and Heroic Garalon, or a very healing intensive fight where if we lost 1 healer it all went to hell such as Heroic Will and Heroic Empress. Then both problems for Heroic Sha So you're completely wrong.


I said MORE of a challenge. Did you read my post?

How is there MORE of a challenge when a death means wipe.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605


I said MORE of a challenge. Did you read my post?

How is there MORE of a challenge when a death means wipe.


Read my post before you post again please.
90 Worgen Warlock
12345


I said MORE of a challenge. Did you read my post?

How is there MORE of a challenge when a death means wipe.


Well you have one BR. I remember raiding 10 man before everyone could battle res and we literally had no BR in the group so 1 death usually resulted in a wipe unless it was our shaman who could ankh. Our shaman however was one of our best players so he rarely died.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Speaking as a former officer of a 25 man guild, and current officer of the same guild that runs 2 and sometimes 3 10 man raids, I just don't see this changing our decision to raid 10 man.

And frankly, the loot issue isn't so much of the problem; it is content difficulty and penetration. Even if I wanted to, I can't get 25 raiders of sufficient quality to clear 25 man hardmode content on any timeline. In 10 man, sure we're not currently clearing hardmode content, but will always have and always will because our players are interested in doing, regardless of loot. As we experienced in wotlk, people die off after a while in 25 man and we have 15 people showing up to learn heroic LK. That doesn't happen in my 10 man, well it does actually, but it's still 15 people and we need 10 and not 25 to make a raid.

We put close to 300 attempts into heroic Al'akir, and 200 attempts into heroic Ragnaros. We schedule raid nights for 3 hours, but have raided to 2 AM to clear 6/7 H FL before nerfs. There's no loot incentive you can put out there that will get 15 more of the kind of players on Duskwood to put that kind of effort into raiding.

I appreciate Blizzard's concern, but without:

1. A massive culture shift back to TBC guild mentality,
2. 25 man raiding being the only way to attain more than entry raid level loot
3. A large reduction in content difficulty back to TBC content difficulty

Me and my guild would generally view this as insufficient incentive to bolster the kind of recruitment and effort from players we'd need to succeed (see similar content penetration on a similar timeline as we currently are in 10 man) as a 25 man guild on Duskwood.
Edited by Firestyle on 1/23/2013 5:59 PM PST
90 Dwarf Shaman
9650


I said MORE of a challenge. Did you read my post?

How is there MORE of a challenge when a death means wipe.


He is saying that on some fights, 1 death means a wipe on both 10 and 25 man. So therefore, it is the same importance that everyone remain alive. But there are some fights where you can lose one person in a 25 man and still make the kill, where as if you lost one person on that same fight in 10 man, you would be losing more, and thus wipe.
85 Night Elf Druid
12000

25s get more. Pure and simple. They get 6, not 5 per boss. In addition the likely usefulness of the 6 is higher than the 2 in 10man.


It's practically the same amount.

10 = 1 piece per 5 people
25 = 1 piece per 4.16 people
100 Orc Warrior
12175
It really depends on what the chance for items to be Thunderforged is. If we're talking like 50% for 25m and 5% for 10m, then it's gonna be kind of an issue. But if it's 15% for 25s and say 10% for 10s, then it's fine.
90 Troll Mage
15190
This is an excellent idea. I think people underestimate the amount of work that goes into a top end guild that wants to stay 25man. Incentives will help keep the 25man raid scene alive.
100 Orc Warrior
12175
It's practically the same amount.

10 = 1 piece per 5 people
25 = 1 piece per 4.16 people


The math has been done before. It doesn't really seem like it but 25s will almost always reach higher levels of gear saturation significantly earlier than 10s will.
100 Orc Warlock
14465
I still think the Asia loot system > all
100 Undead Warlock
15035
01/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think the types of conversations taking place, if nothing else, show that it's at least an engaging change that could mean... something. We'll have to see how it works out, and maybe some day we look back and all laugh at that stupid Thunderforged idea, or maybe we all forget about the forums posts we're making right now because it becomes a solid and accepted part of the game's itemization. In the meantime, your feedback, and back-and-forths, and thoughts, are helpful.


you'll have to change it's name though... I don't think "thunderforged itens" make sense anywhere outside throne of thunder with the mogu thunder forge and all that stuff lol
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
It's practically the same amount.

10 = 1 piece per 5 people
25 = 1 piece per 4.16 people


The math has been done before. It doesn't really seem like it but 25s will almost always reach higher levels of gear saturation significantly earlier than 10s will.


Concur, it's not about the loot distribution in week 1, but in week 15 that matters. 25 man raids still can get all useful loot in week 15, where that's a virtual impossibility for 10 man.
90 Worgen Warlock
12345
01/23/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Preheat
This is an excellent idea. I think people underestimate the amount of work that goes into a top end guild that wants to stay 25man. Incentives will help keep the 25man raid scene alive.


I think they could come up with something better. Coins/extra rolls item upgrades sha touched and now thunderforged. Seems like the same idea.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]