Incentive too high for 25?

100 Blood Elf Warlock
15730
So, 40 man raids, guaranteed loot drop?
100 Pandaren Rogue
9630
Guess the OP wasnt around during WOTLK when 25 man raids dropped better loot than 10 mans.
90 Troll Druid
12280
01/23/2013 06:15 PMPosted by Demonic
It is still a chance. There will be cases where a 10-player raid will have more Thunderforged items than a 25-player raid.


And that's why this system wont work... Because you're just providing a chance to fix the problem. Idiots.


Post of the year.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
01/23/2013 06:17 PMPosted by Metrolol
Incentive too high for 25?


Nope. Not high enough, actually. Or else, those ten man guilds running 2-3 ten man groups within a guild would be doing 25 mans.


So here's the question. How high is high enough to give up content penetration?

How much loot would they have to give me to give up 39 heroic ragnaros kills? Heroic DS kills?

For me and the other officers in my guild to want to run a 25 man guild again would take more than loot. A lot more. A fundamental change in how content difficulty is distributed would need to take place. A fundamental change in the incentives provided to players, to change their behavior patterns would need to take place.

And I'm not sure that is going to happen with LFR welfare gear and 10 mans of every raid in place. Those changes aren't going to get reverted, and I feel there is lack of sufficient leverage for me to run a 25 man hard``mode raiding guild on my server, and doing so I would forfeit an entirely pleasurable experience of raiding 10 man hardmodes, even on attempt 198.
100 Human Warlock
15405
The mistake was allowing progression raids have a 10-player mode to begin with. BC had it right. Now there are hardly any 25m guilds because it is just not worth the effort in comparison. At least Blizzard is finally doing something about this issue.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
01/23/2013 06:28 PMPosted by Amarix
The mistake was allowing progression raids have a 10-player mode to begin with. BC had it right. Now there are hardly any 25m guilds because it is just not worth the effort in comparison. At least Blizzard is finally doing something about this issue.


I hate to say it, but yea, kinda.
90 Dwarf Shaman
11670
01/23/2013 06:28 PMPosted by Amarix
The mistake was allowing progression raids have a 10-player mode to begin with. BC had it right. Now there are hardly any 25m guilds because it is just not worth the effort in comparison. At least Blizzard is finally doing something about this issue.
Then BC didn't have it right because the effort of running a 25m guild hasn't changed really. So if it isn't worth it now it wasn't worth it then.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12235
You're promoting skill based rewards, no matter how small on overcoming what's a social challenge.

It's starting to get to the point where the nostalgia of the design team combined with the desire to maintain subs is seriously hamstringing this game in raid terms. I would love to see what a fresh group of experienced live designers would do in a similar situation without all the memories.

Please stop trying to please everybody, I'm sure I'm not the only one completely sick of all these small victories and taking sides, right now you're not really pleasing anybody in the long term. Kill 10 mans or kill 25 mans as potential flagship raiding environments and be done with it, I don't want this illusion that I'm staying somewhat optimal while putting in the same amount if not more personal effort than someone in a similar position playing in a 25 man guild.

If you're not going to keep things level and let nature take its' course with 25 man guilds then please just cut the cord and say "10 man raiding was a bad idea". But i suppose that's bad for business hey?
90 Draenei Shaman
11610
01/23/2013 06:27 PMPosted by Firestyle


Nope. Not high enough, actually. Or else, those ten man guilds running 2-3 ten man groups within a guild would be doing 25 mans.


So here's the question. How high is high enough to give up content penetration?

How much loot would they have to give me to give up 39 heroic ragnaros kills? Heroic DS kills?

For me and the other officers in my guild to want to run a 25 man guild again would take more than loot. A lot more. A fundamental change in how content difficulty is distributed would need to take place. A fundamental change in the incentives provided to players, to change their behavior patterns would need to take place.

And I'm not sure that is going to happen with LFR welfare gear and 10 mans of every raid in place. Those changes aren't going to get reverted, and I feel there is lack of sufficient leverage for me to run a 25 man hard``mode raiding guild on my server, and doing so I would forfeit an entirely pleasurable experience of raiding 10 man hardmodes, even on attempt 198.


Yes, yes, and yes.
I have raided both formats for all of Cata and now MoP. Mostly 25 man, but some 10 due to start of xpac/harder bosses a tier later(rag/sinestra). And it was obviously these kills were done on 10 man due to how much easier they were in comparison to their 25 man versions. It's why you see so many 10 man guilds who weren't ANYTHING in wrath, now actually having a place on the server, because the content is so easy, but the true 25 man guilds stayed 25 and continue to do the encounters how they should be raided.

Take any 25 man guild and bump them down to 10, and watch their progression ranks sky rocket.

Mathematically speaking, taking everything else out of this, taking the same size room, and adding 15 people, plus upping the damage for every mechanic as well, makes it more challenging on 25 man. Aswell as deciding to 2 heal a boss instead of 3 heal, bumping your 5 dps comp to a 6, drastically reduces the amount of damage needed to kill a boss. In order to drop that many healers to compensate for a 25 man would require 4 healing some bosses, which as progression bosses, just can't happen.

Imo the change wasn't enough. Until we get back to wrath style drops, it won't ever be enough.
90 Gnome Priest
17200
Skipped over most of what is getting posted here after my eyes glazed over from the first 4 pages.

This new system does not represent any disadvantage to 10mans at all. We're still getting our chance at the same loot, there's just a slightly smaller chance the enhanced loot will drop in 10man. RNG will still play its role and some 10mans will end up better geared than some 25mans.

I don't think it will do anything to solve the 25man issue. The problem with 25man has always been on the organizational end and this does nothing to reward those 2 or 3 who have the responsbility for getting the group together. Many of the 25man raid guilds died because people threw up their hands in frustration at trying to get 25 players to show up consistently and they got tired of the headache. Considering the attendance issues we already had with a 25man guild back in Wrath when the loot was consistently better and we had both lockouts to run, I don't see this drawing people back consistently

At best, it's going to attract the shallow players who are only out for the gear and expect the others in the group to carry them to it. I don't expect this to revive 25man raiding in the long run, and most likely not even in the short term.

I have a few friends I've talked to today since this was announced. They all ran 25man guilds at some point back in Wrath and start of Cata before gving up and switching to 10s. None of them think this will make a difference for 25man raiding.
90 Worgen Druid
4810
01/23/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Bashiok
It is still a chance. There will be cases where a 10-player raid will have more Thunderforged items than a 25-player raid.


I'm already a 25 man raider, but if I were a 10 man raider how does this statement make me consider switching to 25 mans? If I'm a GL/RL is this going to convince me to take the necessary steps to form a 25 man raid team?

If your goal was to add incentive to forming/running/maintaining 25 man raids you have absolutely failed.

Regardless of whether you accomplished that goal, I still think Thunderforged gear as a concept is entirely redundant, unnecessary, and a nuisance for ALL raiders.
100 Human Mage
14265
I'm wondering if this is going to result in secondary stats scaling too high like it did in Wrath.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6815
I don't understand the problem. The extra drop gives a slight incentive to run 25 man.

In 25 man, 24% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.
In 10 man, 20% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.

All it's doing is offering a 4% faster gearing rate for 25 mans, to provide incentive for the bigger guilds to actually RUN them.

With 5 loot drops per boss, the numbers are dead even, and as such, there is NO reason to run 25's. Same loot, same speed at gearing up, for more effort. For those people saying that running 25 mans doesn't take more effort, here is what you need to do in a successful 25 man guild.

25:
You need to recruit 15 more people of a similar skill level as the first 10.
You need to make sure those 24 other people are always on every raid night. more than 1 person missing = called raid if you have no subs.
You need to organize 24 other people before each boss attempt in terms of their job for the fight.
You need to be able to pinpoint mistakes made among 24 other people, instead of 9.
You need to have strict looting rules, as opposed to the lax rules you find in 10 mans, because you all know each other really well.
You need to farm more mats for more consumables, assuming you're supporting your raiders like 90% of 10 man guilds do.

10:
Find 9 cool people that breathe oxygen, train them up for a week, collect loots.
Less mats farming
Less issues with attendance(can afford a few subs)
Mistakes are easier to spot with so many less people to watch
Loot rules can be slack, because you're all good mates.
Setting jobs before a 10 man boss is as easy as "Guy #1 do this, Guy #2 do this. Ready? Pulling in 3..."
Would be so much easier just to give us back seperate lockouts for 10 and 25 mans.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13605
I don't understand the problem. The extra drop gives a slight incentive to run 25 man.

In 25 man, 24% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.
In 10 man, 20% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.

All it's doing is offering a 4% faster gearing rate for 25 mans, to provide incentive for the bigger guilds to actually RUN them.
With 5 loot drops per boss, the numbers are dead even, and as such, there is NO reason to run 25's. Same loot, same speed at gearing up, for more effort. For those people saying that running 25 mans doesn't take more effort, here is what you need to do in a successful 25 man guild.

25:
You need to recruit 15 more people of a similar skill level as the first 10.
You need to make sure those 24 other people are always on every raid night. more than 1 person missing = called raid if you have no subs.
You need to organize 24 other people before each boss attempt in terms of their job for the fight.
You need to be able to pinpoint mistakes made among 24 other people, instead of 9.
You need to have strict looting rules, as opposed to the lax rules you find in 10 mans, because you all know each other really well.
You need to farm more mats for more consumables, assuming you're supporting your raiders like 90% of 10 man guilds do.

10:
Find 9 cool people that breathe oxygen, train them up for a week, collect loots.
Less mats farming
Less issues with attendance(can afford a few subs)
Mistakes are easier to spot with so many less people to watch
Loot rules can be slack, because you're all good mates.
Setting jobs before a 10 man boss is as easy as "Guy #1 do this, Guy #2 do this. Ready? Pulling in 3..."


Spoken like someone that's never done a 10man progression boss. Ever.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
I have a few friends I've talked to today since this was announced. They all ran 25man guilds at some point back in Wrath and start of Cata before gving up and switching to 10s. None of them think this will make a difference for 25man raiding.


I concur. But I really think to bring 25 man raiding back, it needs to be the staple of the game. 25 man normals needs to be superior to 10 man normals. Functionally, it needs to be easy enough for someone to say "pugging a 25 man normal makes more sense than pugging a 10 man normal".

Now, we saw this take place in 10 man tier 11, where some fights were in 10 H were almost unkillable on launch. But do 10 man normal folks even want to raid 25 man? Who knows, maybe some will.

Can you recruit a noob out of trade chat, get him to show up every day and learn his class and basic boss mechanics, and still clear 25N? That's the benchmark. I know it's a low bar, but it's where it needs to be for this to work.
Edited by Firestyle on 1/23/2013 6:54 PM PST
90 Human Priest
20530
In 25 man, 24% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.
In 10 man, 20% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.

ideal circumstances only exist for the first week for most 10 mans, some items aren't needed at all by some, whereas 25 mans have a queue on almost every item.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8415
If you are a 10 man raider already my question is why do you care? You already don't participate in the 25 man system, why does a chance at an slightly upgraded item suddenly make you want to find 15 more people to raid with?
100 Orc Warrior
12175
I don't understand the problem. The extra drop gives a slight incentive to run 25 man.

In 25 man, 24% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.
In 10 man, 20% of your raid gets loot in ideal circumstances per boss.

All it's doing is offering a 4% faster gearing rate for 25 mans, to provide incentive for the bigger guilds to actually RUN them.

With 5 loot drops per boss, the numbers are dead even, and as such, there is NO reason to run 25's. Same loot, same speed at gearing up, for more effort. For those people saying that running 25 mans doesn't take more effort, here is what you need to do in a successful 25 man guild.

25:
You need to recruit 15 more people of a similar skill level as the first 10.
You need to make sure those 24 other people are always on every raid night. more than 1 person missing = called raid if you have no subs.
You need to organize 24 other people before each boss attempt in terms of their job for the fight.
You need to be able to pinpoint mistakes made among 24 other people, instead of 9.
You need to have strict looting rules, as opposed to the lax rules you find in 10 mans, because you all know each other really well.
You need to farm more mats for more consumables, assuming you're supporting your raiders like 90% of 10 man guilds do.

10:
Find 9 cool people that breathe oxygen, train them up for a week, collect loots.
Less mats farming
Less issues with attendance(can afford a few subs)
Mistakes are easier to spot with so many less people to watch
Loot rules can be slack, because you're all good mates.
Setting jobs before a 10 man boss is as easy as "Guy #1 do this, Guy #2 do this. Ready? Pulling in 3..."


None of that applies to the average person in either a 10 or 25. I'm just the dude who beats on things, it's not my job or role to be working out what everyone needs to be doing. All you've said is that the officers in a 25m have to, on average, put in more effort to get things done. Every other standard raider in the guild just does exactly what I do; that is to say, they also beat the !@#$ out of stuff and don't have much say in what kind of strats are implemented.
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